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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
My goal in life is for people to shorten their links
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I'm not bothered except when the link is long enough to screw up the formatting of the page.
Then it's really an issue.
I think if you do do that the mods should delete your post. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| True. When I wrote that, i lacked the observation skills to notice that igtg was still the guilty party for that page. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| That's a question America jingoists might have to start asking, if they want to be consistent in their paranoia. |
But you know what? This isn't just about what the U.S. does or does not do, as if that exists in a vaccum. This isn't just about U.S. attitudes and politics.
The perceptions and concerns (your "paranoia," if you will) about having a Middle Eastern company get involved in our infrastructure did not simply arise from thin air -- that is, for no reason whatsoever.
And UAE elites are livid. Fine.
Why don't they ask themselves to look at the full dimensions of the problem, why don't they take that energy and start working as regional leaders to do their part to fix the problem? Because it is too easy just to rant about the U.S. not giving them what they deserve to be given? Is that all they can do? Blame us? (What else is new?)
The U.S. has problems, and the U.S. could work on the problem of U.S.-Middle Eastern relations from its end, too. Again, that's fine. We've heard all about them, again and again on this board.
But perhaps it's time for a moderate Middle Eastern leader or group of moderate Middle Eastern leaders to tackle the problem from their end of the world. And if this is the kind of thing that wakes them up and convinces them that they need to start turning things around too, then this has served a good purpose.
Personally, I take a cynical view on this alternative. The Fundamentalists largely have the upper hand in that part of the world, and I'm increasingly convinced that there is little we can do but to simply work to isolate and contain them until they work out their own demons in their own way. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher, look at what Dubai has done in the past decade or two. It has totally diversified its industry and source of wealth. The money it makes from oil is miniscule.
Be regional leaders?? That's like Singapore expecting to become a regional leader in southeast asia. Sure, the UAE can become an economic leader but beyond that? good luck.
What fundamentalists are running the UAE?? What fundamentalists are even a threat to taking over the UAE gov't? None whatsoever.
This is one of the more idiotic moves by Congress in regards to intl. business that I can think of.
And you have to admit, the only reason it is happening is populism, that vice you're always saying plagues Latin America. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
(1) [I think this is a sort of "Terry Sciavo (sp?)" sort of issue. It all turned on political opportunism. The politicians were not being shortsighted and dumbass- they were pandering for the fall election.
(2) It looked and smelled like, and was, another case of backdoor dealing by this most furtively secretive administration. They tried to push this through the same way they have given plums to Haliburton and all their other financial compatriots. But it blew up in their faces because it hit all the fear factors they have created- foriegners, Arabs, security in general, etc.
The administration's bread and butter is keeping the country in a fearful lather. The media only assists with this hysteria. There seems to be unlimited opportunity in mining the increasingly paranoid Zeitgeist in the U.S. (3) You can't turn on U.S. CNN without hearing a broadside on undocumented immigrants and outsourcing of jobs. They are competing with FOX for the fear and hysteria market.
So, this deal fell apart because it stank of corruption from the beginning, (4) and the U.S. public is not trusting anyone in a turban (or sombrero) at the moment. This situation has been created and nurtured by the administration- they shouldn't be surprised that it has come back and bit them on the ass. |
(numbers are mine)
1. And now this might cost America a lot of money and jobs. Good job. 
2. This was the reason the adminstration was pushing it through quietly. Because they knew a lot of Americans and (other people including some on these forums) can't tell the difference between a long time loyal U.S trading partner and any other Arab state...all they see is an Arab.
3. Those two issues are the Dems' bread and butter issues, not really the current adminstration's.
4. See reason 2. The American public can't tell the difference and now if Dubai retaliates, it may come back to bite THEM in the ass. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| BB: You're focused on the micro picture of this deal and Dubai and I'm focusing on a much more strategic picture. And I do not suggest that the U.S. acted intelligently in this particular thing, either, just not as irrationally as you seem to believe. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Except it makes no sense strategically either. As the various articles have noted, our military extensively uses the UAE's ports, and its gov't has assisted us in the war in terror. Perhaps now due to this port fiasco, they won't be as cooperative and forth-coming in the future. in addition, it just adds more fuel to the anti-american rhetoric; not only that, but it is perfectly justifiable in this instance. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Couldn't disagree with you more. But there's no point in going in circles on this. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ...a lot of Americans and (other people including some on these forums) can't tell the difference between a long time loyal U.S trading partner and any other Arab state...all they see is an Arab. |
I cannot take issue with what you say here, in the context of the Dubai deal, because it certainly has the ring of truth to it.
On the other hand, it is too one-sided and unfairly critical of Americans.
This is simply what happens in war. It is not reasonable; it does not make sense. Like Hoot says, "it's just war." And we are at war in the Middle East -- all over the Middle East. It is difficult at times to tell friend from foe there. And I know you are not one of those who is unreasonably critical of the U.S. in the Middle East so I'll explain what I mean.
When the Iraqi insurgents abducted Tom Fox, a Quaker, and other humanitarian workers, or journalists like Jill Carroll, someone very sympathetic to the local culture and point of view, they, too, failed to make fine distinctions.
I am sure that when they grabbed Fox, they simply grabbed him because he was a white guy and therefore the enemy.
So this painting people in broad strokes is not simply occurring because Americans are stupid and know no better. It is partly the fog and suspicion that clouds vision and reason in wartime.
And please do not forget that the Dubai ports deal involves the U.S. transportation and communications infrastructure. The 9/11 attacks involved Arab subversion of that infrastructure. So did the attacks in Spain and Britain. People on this thread are being intransigent and thick-headed when they complain that Americans are so far off base on being concerned when an Arab company, any Arab company, wants to get more invovled in our transportation infrastructure so soon after 9/11, while war is still raging in the Middle East, while Fundamentalists are still burning U.S. flags, Danish embassies, and threatening to wipe Israel off the map. Concerns about the Dubai port deal, then, did not simply emerge from thin air and cannot be wholly blamed on the national security environment the W. Bush Administration has created and cultivated.
So certainly there is much room to reduce tensions and sort things out, on the American side as well as every other side.
But this out-of-control Islamic Fundamentalist revolution (1979-present) needs to moderate itself first.
If the UAE, however, does not like being associated with this thing and these people who are ethnically, culturally, and religiously their own and who are all around them geographically, perhaps they can work with others in the region who might feel the same to try to do something about it. |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| If the UAE, however, does not like being associated with this thing and these people who are ethnically, culturally, and religiously their own and who are all around them geographically, perhaps they can work with others in the region who might feel the same to try to do something about it. |
Because it doesn't look like my countrymen will let them work with the USA.
The USA can preach free trade around the world, but when we close our borders only because 'they're' Arabs, we're shown to be hypocritical despots who want to take our ball and go home the minute we start to lose the game. |
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shortskirt_longjacket
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Location: fitz and ernie are my raison d'etre
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
When the Iraqi insurgents abducted Tom Fox, a Quaker, and other humanitarian workers, or journalists like Jill Carroll, someone very sympathetic to the local culture and point of view, they, too, failed to make fine distinctions.
I am sure that when they grabbed Fox, they simply grabbed him because he was a white guy and therefore the enemy.
So this painting people in broad strokes is not simply occurring because Americans are stupid and know no better. It is partly the fog and suspicion that clouds vision and reason in wartime.
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Well, yeah. But we kind of expect that elected leaders in an industrialized democracy are going to have a better ability to make these sort of fine distinctions than are a bunch of ragtag miscreants shooting up Baghdad.
And anyway: if we are to understand that Americans are stumbling through the "fog of war" and hence susceptible to irrationality, what about the military contracts I mentioned earlier in this thread? How come there has been virutally no outrage over those? Can the "fog of war" just be magically switched off when the discussion switches from ports to military? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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I know little about the details of the contracts you are citing. But if you are looking to say that "it's all about money" as part of the "it's all about oil" argument, I won't waste my time getting into any kind of discussion over that, even though I cannot imagine that there is no outrage being expressed over the issue, particularly given the oft-cited "it's all about Halliburton" variant that I hear at least once a week in the U.S. media.
And the insurgency is much more organized, purposeful, trained, and supported than your misleading description "a bunch of ragtag miscreants" suggests, and I think you already know that.
I think the perceptions, conscious or not, that I usually run into on this board, particularly while discussing U.S. foreign policy, are the simplistic assumptions that the U.S. government behaves purely maliciously, greedily, and dishonestly, while virtuous, Third-World actors behave passively and without guile.
It's a bit annoying.
The U.S. does sometimes behave this way, but sometimes it does not. Unfortunately, the result can often be the same. As former Deputy Director for Intelligence Ray Cline once opined, the U.S. is too big and powerful to have the luxury of being neutral or passive on any issue, anywhere in the world. Action or inaction equally affect outcomes and shape perceptions, etc. It's U.S. motives that are usually maligned the most.
And our motives on the ports issue, while not so pure and virtuous, are certainly not wholly based on irrationality or reactionary populism either.
I've seen articles from those who are beginning to argue (W. Bush's "we need to break our addiction to Middle Eastern oil" proposal didn't come from thin air, you know) that we ought to think of containing the Islamic Fundamentalist revolution as we contained Stalinism and Soviet Communism earlier. There is no reasoning with most of these people; even "allied" govts like Saudi and Pakistan barely walk a tightrope where the slightest misstep throws them into an abyss. This new containment strategy would entail writing off and shutting off the entire region as best we can, hoping that the revolution will burn out, perhaps produce a Gorbachev or Yeltsin, and then we can move forward as an international community. This, of course, would entail major transformations in the global political economy. But so be it. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
DP runs the Port of Vancouver.
Maybe the entire Can-US border should be shut down? |
Maybe all dope-smoking Canadians should stop being so apathetic.
If ever there was a more blatant modern-day metaphor for a TROJAN HORSE. |
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