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red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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 Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| red dog wrote: |
Fact: Slaughterhouses are bad.
Fact: The violence of slaughterhouses doesn't justify the violence of the seal hunt. |
Actually, I agree with red dog about this. But only about this. |
Thanks Bobster. That was actually my most important point, not only in this discussion but also in a number of past threads on these boards -- and if certain people had caught it in the first place, it would have saved us all pages and pages of needless bickering. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| red dog wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| red dog wrote: |
Fact: Slaughterhouses are bad.
Fact: The violence of slaughterhouses doesn't justify the violence of the seal hunt. |
Actually, I agree with red dog about this. But only about this. |
Thanks Bobster. That was actually my most important point, not only in this discussion but also in a number of past threads on these boards -- and if certain people had caught it in the first place, it would have saved us all pages and pages of needless bickering. |
If I had wanted to at the time, I would have gone on to say that not only are slaughterhouses bad, but they are necessary. Meat is delicious, some kinds more than others, and jajdude tells me seal meat tastes good, and unless you tell me otherwise I'm going to believe him.
Frankly, I disagree with the seal hunt because it seems atavistic, harking back to a previous, less civilized mode in human existence in which tribes banded together to slaughter animals outdoors and carry them home to feed their families. We are modern people and we can go to supermarkets to get our food ...
I don't see "tradition" as enough to allow the seal hunt to continue, especially when butressed with specious arguments about economic need in a country that has just barely enough wealth (surely a lot more) to afford to send soldiers to the ME to support her southern neighbor's adventures in Afghanistan. Maybe they should bring the boys home and use the money saved to build some businesses for their citizens in that part of the world. Canada is not a poor county. If the people living near the seals are so poor they have to engage in this thing, then the rest of Canada ought to help them out by building a stem cell resaerch institute there, or else they ought to get wise and move to some other place where they can get real jobs like normal people ...
On the whole, though, I'm not going to criticize Canada over what is just a difference of opinion about what to eat and what to wear. Just as I don't criticize Koreans over what they eat and wear - don't get me started on Korean ajeosshi fashions, omg ...
By the way, I have a very warm overcoat I got this winter that is most made of natural fiber and synthetic materials, but also has a very small fringe of what I am sure is rabbit fur surrounding the hood. (I'm fairly certain because I had rabbits for pets and livestock when I was a boy, so I'm familiar with the texture.) The rabbit fur does not contribute a lot to it's warmth, but I like the coat anyway. Actually, I like it a lot, it's a very well-made garment. Rabbits are cute, and their fur is sometimes decorative, thought there is not enough of it on my coat for me to tell if it warm. It would be nice to think the rabbits were treated well and given some joy before donating themselves to the decoration on my coat, but really, I don't think about it all that much ...
I think what bothers me about the seals and Canada is that they are wild creatures not raised for the purposes of their slaughter and that the "hunt" is a very unequal contest since the seals don't move so well out of the water. I mean, any animal you can go up to and hit on the head with a stick ...
Dawg, I respect you for your sincerity, and for your blind obsession. I mean you no ill, never did, despite the terrible things we've said to each other, including the lack of sympathy you once publicly expressed towards my having to watch my mother die slowly over decades in a crippled condition from diabetes which has in past been treated by insulin derived from pork and requires research that kills animals - all of which, when I pointed it out in a discussion some time ago, you objected to, as making things "personal," and which I felt uniquely described your disdain for "persons" ...
"Certain people" will simply never agree, on the important things ... I guess.
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Ironically, nobody complains about the fishing of sardines, which are baby herring. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| red dog wrote: |
| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| endofthewor1d wrote: |
FACT: for some people, the desire to club baby seals in the head is justification enough for the violence of the seal hunt.
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Umm ... what are you defending exactly? |
All forms of animal abuse in existence, I think. |
Well, I'll never be a vegetarian myself. But if EotW1 is trying hard to shock middle-class Western consumers of wildlife posters, he is obviously aspiring to be just another kind of "alternative hippie" with a juvenile amount of desperation.
South Park is funny. He isn't. |
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red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Well FWIW, Bobster, I'm sorry to hear about your mother ... but I don't feel that I expressed a "lack of sympathy" over her just because I objected to your having brought up the subject inappropriately, in the context of a discussion about a moral issue. You support abortion, don't you? How would you like it if someone accused you of wishing a member of their family had been aborted because you expressed a different opinion? And if I remember correctly, I think you're opposed to the death penalty, right? Suppose someone on these boards had lost a family member to a murderer and accused you of being glad the murder happened. I just didn't want to be sidetracked into a silly, irrelevant argument; actually I don't know where you got the idea that I didn't want your mother to receive medical treatment or that animal people are opposed to medical treatment in general. Most of us will take medication if we need it, and many diseases run in my family too -- including diabetes, heart disease and cancer. But the only way to prevent more people from getting these diseases in the long term is to educate the public about the importance of a healthy plant-based diet with enough fruits and vegetables, clean air (without any tobacco smoke in it), breast-feeding for infants and toddlers, and other everyday lifestyle changes. Type 2 diabetes can often be reversed with a healthy diet, and type 1 diabetes has been linked to the use of infant formula. By the time "heroic" measures are needed, it's often too late to prevent the victims from suffering and dying.
About fur -- this information may be of interest to you:
http://www.furisdead.com/feat-bailey.asp
About the seal hunt, I agree with most of what you say ... except for the bit about the stem cells ... maybe they could build some organic greenhouses in Eastern Canada instead? And, of course, I reject the underlying implication that this really isn't important enough to be considered an international issue because they're "just animals."
One thing I strongly disagree with is the suggestion that it's somehow more wrong for us to kill seals than animals who are raised for slaughter. Farmed animals go through hell, and imprisoning them before they die just makes us more culpable. Still, there's really no market for seal flesh or skin in Canada, and these animals are being slaughtered mainly because of politics. Politicians need to know that the public won't stand for it -- but at the same time, promoting veganism is by far the most important way we can help all animals, regardless of whether they're seals, dogs, chickens, or any other species. Your statement that slaughterhouses are "necessary" would only be remotely defensible if humans had a genuine nutritional need for animal products. The weight of the evidence doesn't support that position at all. And many vegan dishes are delicious. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| red dog wrote: |
| many vegan dishes are delicious. |
This is the only thing you said I agree with ...
It's nearly 8 ayem and I've been out all night talkiing about really important things with a good friend, so forgive me if I wait until later before pointing all the other wrong things you said. If I tried to do so now, I'd end up being snide and derisive - you might actually deserve that, but I don't deserve to be the one who has to do it ...
Just one thing, though.
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| I don't feel that I expressed a "lack of sympathy" over her just because I objected to your having brought up the subject inappropriately, in the context of a discussion about a moral issue. |
There is no rational way a human being can talk about moral issues without reflecting on the way they impact one personally, and especially upon those such a person loves and cares for deeply. There is nothing "inappropriate" when a human discusses that pain and loss in the context of a political issue that effects all of us, in this case, the use of animals for the creation of drugs for illness and the testing of those drugs.
And, yes, when you dismiss such concerns and call them "inappropriate," you are disrespecting my humanity, disrespecting the pain felt by my mother for decades before the end of her life and trying to assert that both of them are trivial in the face of your very abstract and rather nebulous moral compass ... I resented it in the past, and I resent it now.
I respect you enough to listen and talk to you - you respect me only enough to talk, and not even enough to consider the pain I have experienced in my life from watching someone close to me die slowly through long-term pain and debilitation as something important.
It IS important. And you are a very rude and ugly-minded person to try to say it is not. |
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endofthewor1d
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Location: the end of the wor1d.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| red dog wrote: |
| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| endofthewor1d wrote: |
FACT: for some people, the desire to club baby seals in the head is justification enough for the violence of the seal hunt.
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Umm ... what are you defending exactly? |
All forms of animal abuse in existence, I think. |
Well, I'll never be a vegetarian myself. But if EotW1 is trying hard to shock middle-class Western consumers of wildlife posters, he is obviously aspiring to be just another kind of "alternative hippie" with a juvenile amount of desperation.
South Park is funny. He isn't. |
dude. if you're looking for comedy, go watch south park. i didn't think your post was very funny either. but then, i suspect that's because, like mine, it wasn't meant to be. thank you for the fancy pants literary criticism, but i'll give you the author's point of view.
this:
| Quote: |
FACT: stating that anything is inherently 'good' or 'bad' is an opinion, not a fact.
FACT: for some people, the desire to club baby seals in the head is justification enough for the violence of the seal hunt.
FACT: animals are food.
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was in response to this:
| Quote: |
Fact: Slaughterhouses are bad.
Fact: The violence of slaughterhouses doesn't justify the violence of the seal hunt.
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red dog, much like fiveeagles, rteacher, or any number of nutbars on a mission to push their own weird morality quirk onto the rest of the world, will say that their beliefs are 'facts'.
anyone who knows the difference between a fact and an opinion can see that what red dog labeled 'facts' are not actually facts. what i labeled 'facts' are actually facts.
| Quote: |
Fact: Slaughterhouses are bad.
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if anyone in the world is able to dispute that, it ceases to be a fact. i will step up to dispute that. i think slaughterhouses are good. they provide me with meat. i like meat. if i have a legitimate disagreement with something someone says, then what they said must be an opinion. it's not like she said the sky is blue, and i tried to argue that it was yellow.
| Quote: |
| Fact: The violence of slaughterhouses doesn't justify the violence of the seal hunt. |
for red dog, that might be the case. actually, for me that's the case too. but that doesn't make it a fact. if you go up to someone who just killed a seal and say "why did you kill that seal?", and they say "slaughterhouses kill cows, so i feel justified in killing seals.", then red dog's fact suddenly becomes an opinion. no matter how faulty their logic, they have used one thing to justify another. for red dog, being hungry is not justification to eat a hamburger. for me, it is. for red dog, wingnut political beliefs are justification to blow up SUV's. for me, they are not.
now, this is what i listed as 'facts'...
| Quote: |
FACT: stating that anything is inherently 'good' or 'bad' is an opinion, not a fact.
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if you can argue with that, i'll listen. but way back in elementary school, when i was learning the difference between facts and opinions, the words 'good' and 'bad' were always bigtime clues that i was supposed to check the box for 'opinion'.
| Quote: |
FACT: for some people, the desire to club baby seals in the head is justification enough for the violence of the seal hunt.
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i explained this above. if you ask someone "why did you just club that baby seal in the head?" and he says "because i wanted to.", he has just used his desire to club a baby seal in the head as a justification to do just that. maybe you don't think that's a good justification. i don't think it's a good justification either. i personally don't have the desire to club a baby seal in the head. they are cute. i like cute things. if i clubbed one in the head, it would cease to be cute, and that would make me sad.
however, the fact that i don't personally don't like something doesn't make its 'badness' a universal truth.
| Quote: |
| FACT: animals are food. |
i have personally confirmed this many times. i've conducted scientific experiments in which i ate meat, and my body digested it. i intend to do a lot more research on the issue.
barking mad lord snapcase... i don't know why you jumped down my throat about this. perhaps it's because i didn't respond to your earlier post:
| Quote: |
| Umm ... what are you defending exactly? |
if i hurt your feelings, i'm sorry. i wasn't defending the wonton clubbing of baby seals for the amusement of sadists. i was defending the definitions of the words 'fact' and 'opinion'. |
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red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
There is no rational way a human being can talk about moral issues without reflecting on the way they impact one personally, and especially upon those such a person loves and cares for deeply. There is nothing "inappropriate" when a human discusses that pain and loss in the context of a political issue that effects all of us, in this case, the use of animals for the creation of drugs for illness and the testing of those drugs.
And, yes, when you dismiss such concerns and call them "inappropriate," you are disrespecting my humanity, disrespecting the pain felt by my mother for decades before the end of her life and trying to assert that both of them are trivial in the face of your very abstract and rather nebulous moral compass ... I resented it in the past, and I resent it now.
I respect you enough to listen and talk to you - you respect me only enough to talk, and not even enough to consider the pain I have experienced in my life from watching someone close to me die slowly through long-term pain and debilitation as something important.
It IS important. And you are a very rude and ugly-minded person to try to say it is not. |
Once again, you resort to personal attacks when someone disagrees with you. I'm not going to get drawn into old debates -- I decided to post in this thread because I wanted to refute certain statements that other people made, suggesting that animal issues are less important than human issues and that the McCartneys, who are in the public eye and have the resources to support whatever cause they choose, are wrong to choose this one. Or that they're traitors to "humanity." I think I've explained why I disagree with that perspective. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| endofthewor1d wrote: |
i explained this above. if you ask someone "why did you just club that baby seal in the head?" and he says "because i wanted to.", he has just used his desire to club a baby seal in the head as a justification to do just that. maybe you don't think that's a good justification. i don't think it's a good justification either. i personally don't have the desire to club a baby seal in the head. they are cute. i like cute things. if i clubbed one in the head, it would cease to be cute, and that would make me sad.
however, the fact that i don't personally don't like something doesn't make its 'badness' a universal truth. |
True, but there are degrees of good and bad judgement. If a person clubs a seal because he is starving, that is an understandable motive. If a person clubs a seal because it is "fun", then no amount of cultural relativism is going to make that person look any higher than a drooling, grunting, crash helmet wearing mongoloid on a leash. |
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