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What will America be like when Wade vs Roe is overturned?
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ChimpumCallao

Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:30 pm Post subject:

mithridates wrote:

ChopChaeJoe wrote:

It is a strange idea -- to die before you are born.

As for the Bible and killing of innocents -- King Saul got in big trouble with the big man because he didn't slaughter all of the women and children after a battle.

I think that if you want to eliminate abortion, give people hope and reason for a rewarding future, and educate them as how to enjoy sex without unwanted pregnancy and disease. Ignorance, despair and hopelessness are the root causes of almost all bad decisions.

Good! Also make sure people know that orgasm is more often achieved by oral sex / manual stimulation than full-on sex.

is that actually true??? I don't believe.

mithridates

Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject:

Manner of Speaking wrote:

To answer your question broadly, I regard "the Bible" as a collection of Iron-Age folktales from the Middle East, nothing more.

Well, it's more than that, even to an atheist. Some tales, some historical works especially on Jewish kings, a lot of letters and early correspondences, gospels according to one person or another, lots of poetry and proverbs. There's no reason to pretend a letter written by one person to a church at the time is any less valid than another letter simply because you don't like the religion that has made it part of their scripture.

mithridates

Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:36 pm Post subject:

ChimpumCallao wrote:

mithridates wrote:

ChopChaeJoe wrote:

Good! Also make sure people know that orgasm is more often achieved by oral sex / manual stimulation than full-on sex.

is that actually true??? I don't believe.

That was one of the first things I remember Sue Johanson always emphasizing when I listened to her show every Sunday night in Jr. high. Manual clitoral stimulation is much more effective. Fingers and tongues are much more dextrous, so it makes sense, as long as you know what you're supposed to do and where.

Manner of Speaking

Joined: 09 Jan 2003

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject:

mithridates wrote:

Manner of Speaking wrote:

To answer your question broadly, I regard "the Bible" as a collection of Iron-Age folktales from the Middle East, nothing more.

I'm just stating my opinion. I don't treat "the Bible" as a valid explanation of how the universe works, or as a source of moral guidance, any more than I would treat Grimm's Fairy Tales as such.

mithridates

Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:51 am Post subject:

Manner of Speaking wrote:

mithridates wrote:

Manner of Speaking wrote:

To answer your question broadly, I regard "the Bible" as a collection of Iron-Age folktales from the Middle East, nothing more.

I'm just stating my opinion. I don't treat "the Bible" as a valid explanation of how the universe works, or as a source of moral guidance, any more than I would treat Grimm's Fairy Tales as such.

Nobody said you need to. The books in the Bible aren't simple collections of fairy tales though. As an atheist you should give them about as much credence as Beowulf for the older books (which you've alluded to above) but to treat New Testament works more along the lines of personal accounts and letters from people at the time. I see no reason for you to give any pieces of writing extra scorn just because people you don't agree with give them extra reverence.

Why? Because I think Ecclesiastes in particular goes overlooked by a lot of people. I suspect if it wasn't part of the Bible that it would be a favourite in non-religious circles as well (and before you say that it wouldn't because it mentions God, so does Beowulf and nobody minds that).

Manner of Speaking

Joined: 09 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject:

Manner of Speaking wrote:

mithridates wrote:

I'm just stating my opinion. I don't treat "the Bible" as a valid explanation of how the universe works, or as a source of moral guidance, any more than I would treat Grimm's Fairy Tales as such.

Nobody said you need to. The books in the Bible aren't simple collections of fairy tales though. As an...

Mith, you're a nice guy, but..first you tell me nobody said I had to regard "the Bible" in any particular way...then you go right ahead and tell me how I'm supposed to think about it.

As far as I am concerned, "the Bible" is just a collection of Iron-Age folktales, nothing more or less. I don't regard it as being of any greater moral significance than King Arthur and the Round Table or One Thousand and One Nights.

I'm not trying to tell other people how they should think about it, my original comment was to fiveeagles. Basing arguments on the validity of abortion services and rights on "the Bible", to me, is about as significant as basing them on interpretations of passages of King Arthur. ** shrug **

mithridates

Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject:

Manner of Speaking wrote:

mithridates wrote:

I'm just stating my opinion. I don't treat "the Bible" as a valid explanation of how the universe works, or as a source of moral guidance, any more than I would treat Grimm's Fairy Tales as such.

Nobody said you need to. The books in the Bible aren't simple collections of fairy tales though. As an...

I suppose the only problem I have is with treating the Bible as one book as opposed to a collection of them. Christians have the exact same problem there. I imagine once again the guy who wrote Ecclesiastes throwing up his hands in exasperation at both a Christian and an atheist from the present - "WTF did I do? You think my book is pure divine inspiration (well, thank you I suppose) and you think it's utter shyte, just because it got compiled in with another religion five centuries later? I just wrote my opinion on life, that's it..."

It's probably kind of like bringing up the fact that I don't like the terms left wing or right wing either. True or not, nobody listens when they get into an argument. Oh well.

My best friend had an interesting first year as his biblical studies professor (UofC) was a hardcore atheist. That was a pretty interesting class.

Manner of Speaking

Joined: 09 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject:

mithridates wrote:

Fair enough. I was under the impression that the word Bible comes from the greek byblos, meaning "book" or "a book". I might be wrong.

Quote:

My best friend had an interesting first year as his biblical studies professor (UofC) was a hardcore atheist. That was a pretty interesting class.

I can imagine. Laughing

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:00 am Post subject:

Quote:

The man behind 'Roe vs. Wade for Men'

When I walked up to a modest home in Saginaw, Michigan, yesterday morning and knocked on the door, I expected a loud and emotional greeting from the man inside. After all, he's launched a lawsuit that's grabbing headlines and could have national implications. As it turns out, I met a soft-spoken man, but what he has to say could impact how men are held accountable when they father a child.

Matt Dubay is 25 years old. He's single. And for now, he wants to keep it that way. But Dubay is also the father of an eight-month-old girl named Elisabeth. And that's the problem. Dubay is suing his ex-girlfriend, 20-year-old Lauren Wells, because he believes he shouldn't be forced to pay $560 a month in child support.

"During the time we were seeing each other, I made it very clear to her that I was not ready to be a father, and she made it very clear to me that she was incapable of becoming pregnant because of a condition," Dubay told me.

The ex-couple's battle here in Saginaw has become the centerpiece of a national campaign to allow men to reject the responsibilities of fatherhood. A rights group called The National Center for Men is backing the lawsuit, calling its legal crusade "Roe vs. Wade for Men," after the landmark Supreme Court decision that gives women the legal right to an abortion.

Dubay told me that he feels he was shut out. "She was given the right to have an abortion, keep the child, put the child up for adoption, and whatever she chooses, I have to go along with....Under our laws, our constitution, that doesn't seem right to me."

Women's rights groups insist men like Dubay are not being forced into parenthood. They say child support payments are a fair, and modest, alternative to the lifetime commitment of being a father. But when I met with Dubay's lawyer, Jeff Cojocar, at his office near Detroit, he insisted the lawsuit isn't trying to create an easy way out for men. He says it's about trying to extend to men the freedom of choice the Supreme Court decision gave to women.

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:53 am Post subject:

[deleted] Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

canuckistan
Mod Team

Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:08 am Post subject:

Quote:

What is happening is that women are reserving all rights to act unilaterally in all pregnancy scenarios and men are just along for the ride.

Yup. Because women are the primary care takers and always will be so the majority of the 24-7 child caretaking responsibility rests with them ie: their lives (especially their careers and earning power) are impacted the most. They tend to quit working full time and go to non-career oriented part time work to make time to take care of children... and as a result they lose an average of $900,000 of income over their lifetimes doing so as well as missing out on ongoing career advancement because of the lack of continuity in their careers. Men don't generally make the same work/time sacrifices to take care of children. Voila.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject:

[deleted] Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

canuckistan
Mod Team

Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Why was the "voila" necessary, by the way?

It's just a French expression sometimes used akin to "and there you have it."

fiveeagles

Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject:

2 woman die after taking the morning after pill.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/03/17/ru486.deaths.ap/index.html

Quote:

Their is no doubt that woman make amazing sacrifices for the family, but it doesn't reduce the role of the man. Many problems in society are because of men walking out on their marriages, leaving the family to defend for themselves. Wisdom like this empowers the husband to leave the woman behind.

Regardless, it's proven that men and woman need to be involved in the family for it to be a benefit to society. One person is not more important than the other. Children need both their mothers and fathers.

People who want to have sex should bear the result of the consequences.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject:

[deleted] Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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