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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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 Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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The relevant point for the op is...
with "Have you ever..." questions, EITHER is fine.
Have you ever been to Jeju?
Have you ever gone to Jeju?
The only slight insignificant diff is that the latter emphasizes the JOURNEY while the former makes one think more of the DESTINATION. (e.g., It's more natural to say of someone living nearby: "Have you ever been to his house?") |
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deessell
Joined: 08 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
The relevant point for the op is...
with "Have you ever..." questions, EITHER is fine.
Have you ever been to Jeju?
Have you ever gone to Jeju?
The only slight insignificant diff is that the latter emphasizes the JOURNEY while the former makes one think more of the DESTINATION. (e.g., It's more natural to say of someone living nearby: "Have you ever been to his house?") |
WRONG!!! This is incorrect. You are teaching this wrong. sorry. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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"Have you ever...?" questions are about ANYTIME in the past... so deessell's analysis of being-on-a-trip-not-yet-finished doesn't apply.
| deessell wrote: |
WRONG!!! This is incorrect. You are teaching this wrong. sorry. |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
Why deliberately change a language that had evolved into a well-oiled machine, over many many centuries, before its recent arrival in America? |
Why should the evolution that has occurred over many centuries suddenly cease because some English speakers moved to America? Do people in England really speak the same English that they spoke at the time of American colonization? Haven't the English themselves continued to evolve what was already a well oiled machine? |
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SOOHWA101
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Location: Makin moves...trying to find 24pyung
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| jaykimf wrote: |
| nautilus wrote: |
Why deliberately change a language that had evolved into a well-oiled machine, over many many centuries, before its recent arrival in America? |
Why should the evolution that has occurred over many centuries suddenly cease because some English speakers moved to America? Do people in England really speak the same English that they spoke at the time of American colonization? Haven't the English themselves continued to evolve what was already a well oiled machine? |
You are correct. Spending a short time researching "The Evolution of English" reveals that English is indeed the mut of the worlds languages. It encompasses "almost" every major language spoken today. And yes NAUTILIS, even the grammar has changed over the years. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Haven't the English themselves continued to evolve what was already a well oiled machine? |
There are those, and I have the misfortune to talk to a couple of them, who insist that only people still living in England have the right to change the language. All other changes are bastardizations, especially if they come from the US. |
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SOOHWA101
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Location: Makin moves...trying to find 24pyung
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Haven't the English themselves continued to evolve what was already a well oiled machine? |
There are those, and I have the misfortune to talk to a couple of them, who insist that only people still living in England have the right to change the language. All other changes are bastardizations, especially if they come from the US. |
That is hilarious!! What a pompous attitude to have. English at one time did not belong to the English; it began as a Germanic language. Besides, the "English" are behind the times. I think that more than half of the prospective job posts I come across requiring a North American accent proves it. I believe too boring was the reason given for not wanting British teachers. |
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CaptainConjunction
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
The relevant point for the op is...
with "Have you ever..." questions, EITHER is fine.
Have you ever been to Jeju?
Have you ever gone to Jeju?
The only slight insignificant diff is that the latter emphasizes the JOURNEY while the former makes one think more of the DESTINATION. (e.g., It's more natural to say of someone living nearby: "Have you ever been to his house?") |
This would only be correct if you said
Have you ever gone to Jeju by boat? (or other method of travel)
Then you could say it is emphasizing the journey.
By the way, as has already been mentioned by several people in this thread, been means went there and came back whereas gone means still there. It you look at any British grammar book, it will explain this.
"John's been to Korea" (he had a nasty experience in a hagwon so he left)
"John's gone to Japan" (he's no longer in Korea)
However, for those people who speak American, often either can be used. Being an Australian, I usually opt for the British version as it's much simpler to teach. ("here's the rule, learn it!") |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Have you ever gone fishing? (of course you have already returned)
Have you ever gone to the track? (same)
The use of "ever" is what changes things here.
Compare:
Have you gone fishing? (this does imply that you are still fishing)
although the context would have to determine this.
Have you gone to the track? (same) |
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visviva
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Although I agree with the consensus that "been to" implies a completed action, I don't think that "gone to" is limited to incomplete actions.
"I've been to Heoul a few times = I've gone to Heoul a few times."
The former is preferable, but the distinction is more a matter of style/emphasis than syntax. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
Have you ever gone fishing? (of course you have already returned) Have you ever gone to the track? (same)
The use of "ever" is what changes things here.
Compare:
Have you gone fishing? (this does imply that you are still fishing)
although the context would have to determine this.
Have you gone to the track? (same) |
This is my exact point. Thanks for spelling it out for those with misapplied grammar rules in their heads. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:54 am Post subject: |
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[quote="SOOHWA101"]
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| English at one time did not belong to the English; it began as a Germanic language. |
It still IS a germanic language. you see..this is exactly what I'm talking about..
The angles and saxons were the main contributors to the early form of English, yes. Hugely significant and perhaps equally important was also Celtic and Norman French. (A romance language). england set a standard of accepting immigrants from all over the globe long before America became the cultural free for all. And due to the British empire, and close exposure to a variety of diverse languages next door on the european continent, it developed, streamilined, and diversified its reach. Its the only language to have influences from virtually every other language on earth.
| Quote: |
| Besides, the "English" are behind the times. I think that more than half of the prospective job posts I come across requiring a North American accent proves it. |
Where, on the Korea job board?? hahahaha
When it comes to English, Koreans don't know their Arse from their elbow. I've seen them employ a Pole with English as his second language over someone from the home counties, on the basis of his hair colour. Dude, Korea is an inward looking country with a ridiculously skewed perception of the world outside its borders. Of course they think the universe consist of only Korea and america: thats all their historic experience allows for. We're in a country that is basically an island, without borders to any other nation: cut adrift to evolve separately from the rest of the planet for centuries. The hermit nation. And you highlight them as a valid yardstick of world linguistic knowledge?
Most countries on earth that have English as a second language..many former colonies included, speak british english, and look to London as the standard. Ever heard of the commonwealth?
If the english-speaking abilities of so many slang talking, virtually indecipherable Americans are anything to go by, the international language has suffered a backward step, a retardation, mutilation of epic proportions in America. |
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out of context
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| If the english-speaking abilities of so many slang talking, virtually indecipherable Americans are anything to go by, the international language has suffered a backward step, a retardation, mutilation of epic proportions in America. |
I suppose I should have given a caveat with my analysis: From the vantage point of a slang talking, virtually indecipherable, backward/retarded/mutilated English-speaking U.S.ian such as myself, both of the constructions offered by the OP are acceptable.
The preferred reading for "has gone" is that the person in question is still there. But the following exchange sounds natural to me, given the context:
[Setting: Home interior. Characters: A & B, both physically present]
A: "I'm leaving now. Do you want me to buy anything?"
B: "No, I've already gone to the store."
However, English learners should obviously be aware that by using the construction in B, they risk severely offending the sensibilities of certain purists. Perhaps a footnote in the textbook would be helpful. |
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SOOHWA101
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Location: Makin moves...trying to find 24pyung
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
Where, on the Korea job board?? hahahaha
When it comes to English, Koreans don't know their Arse from their elbow. I've seen them employ a Pole with English as his second language over someone from the home counties, on the basis of his hair colour. Dude, Korea is an inward looking country with a ridiculously skewed perception of the world outside its borders. Of course they think the universe consist of only Korea and america: thats all their historic experience allows for. We're in a country that is basically an island, without borders to any other nation: cut adrift to evolve separately from the rest of the planet for centuries. The hermit nation. And you highlight them as a valid yardstick of world linguistic knowledge?
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I can't stop thinking about how lucky the Korean people are to have such an intellect in their midst. They must really be getting their moneys worth. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
| SOOHWA101 wrote: |
The usage of both can be twisted to break almost any existing rule that pertains to either or. Shame on the person that tells you English is not a progressive language. |
If it aint broke don't fix it. "progressive" does not include changing rules that work well as they are.
"Been to"= went and came back already.
"Gone to"= the person is still there.
I thought this was obvious- its not interchangeable. If your friend is still on holiday in Hawaii, you don't tell people he's "been to" hawaii. |
As someone posted before, the presence of ever changes the thing, and as others pointed out, so does context. And context trumps all. Since those have ben covered, let me add a final point: Having gone does not necessarily exclude NOT having returned, even if not mentioned.
You are comparing a declarative to an interrogative. Ooops. The examples listed from grammar sources were NOT from questions, but from statements. Find me an American AND British grammar that says the question form cannot be used and I shall let this go.
Have you ever gone over the deep end?
I rest my case. |
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