Korean Job Discussion Forums

bucheon bum · Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Read Assasin's Gate by George Packer. Read A Plan of Attack by Bob Woodward. Read Squandered Victory by Larry Diamond.

You'll see how we really did things on the fly and how we seriously lacked a plan. It isn't because we didn't have the skills or the people- we simply ignored them. excuse me, not we, but the Bush administration.

We're in this situation because we did things half-ass. Had we actually been competant and had an actual post-war plan, we would not be seeing the chaos we are seeing now.

I'm not saying democracy and prosperity would be in iraq had we done things correctly from the beginning, but I'm 100% confident that Iraq would not be on the verge of civil war right now.

BTW, the Afghani man is a complete dumb ass.

Gopher · Joined: 04 Jun 2005

I am not defending the W. Bush Administration or saying that everything is great in Iraq.

Take away Saddam, who left no institutions in his wake, who left no tradition of self-govt, etc., and you can only have civil war in Iraq. There was no getting around it -- even though it should have been anticipated.

The books you cite are journalist accounts, with journalist agendas, and other "inside" accounts and sensationalist "insight" meant to profit from contemporary controversy, and antiwar and prowar opinion, etc. Diamond is a sociologist -- an extremely leftist discpline, by the way -- who has a policymaking/advising axe to grind.

Moreover, Woodward has come under attack before, namely in Veil, for apparently falsefying a meeting with Casey on his deathbed. So all that he writes is not gold, either. See Gates's From the Shadows and see Persico's Casey.

In any case, these are not professional historical reconstructions, and are not based on the kinds of evidence we require to make the kinds of "totally on the fly" conclusions you and Bulsajo and others are alleging.

It is too hot right now to make these conclusions anyway.

The environment is too partisan and bitter.

And we are way too close to this event to come to sound conclusions about it.

bucheon bum · Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Gopher, you have too much faith in your gov't. I'll leave it at that.

Gopher · Joined: 04 Jun 2005

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bucheon bum · Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Gopher, who is saying anything about a conspiricy? When I talk about faith in gov't here, I'm not talking about honesty and openness. I don't think Bush has tried to deceive us or anything like that. I'm strictly refering to your faith in the competance of the people that run our country.

edit: If I were infering anything like a conspiricy, cover up, et al. then why would I be making an argument they had no plan to begin with?? The two contradict each other.

Gopher · Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Ya-ta Boy · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994

Bulsajo · Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Gopher you don't need to wait around for docs to become declassified, there is plenty of damning evidence all around.
Get your hands on Assassin's Gate, for starters.
You don't even have to buy it- just go to Bandi and Luni's, or Kyobo, or What the Book one afternoon, sit down, and read chapter 4, "Special Plans".
It's only 49 pages, you could do it in less than an hour.

click to go to Amazon

Reviews of Assassin's gate:
http://www.metacritic.com/books/authors/packergeorge/assassinsgate

Gopher · Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Ya-ta: journalists consider themselves and their profession to be an unofficial fourth branch of govt.

You are failing to consider that they too often get caught up in making history rather than merely reporting it to be as reliable as you seem to be suggesting here.

But, in any case, people are free to believe whatever they want.

Bulsajo · Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Gopher, how can you say this without having read the source?

Gopher · Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Ya-ta Boy · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994

Gopher · Joined: 04 Jun 2005

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Bulsajo · Joined: 16 Jan 2003

mithridates · Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject:

If we're still talking about overall competence (I hope we are), there are two types: one is the collecting of info and making long-term plans, and the other is just a basic one that can be used on the fly and keeps one from making errors on the spot, especially ones that can be created by too much group-think. The second type is a kind of instinct that is really built up from a lot of seemingly unrelated experience. An example would be that disaster of a new flag thought up for Iraq in the beginning of the occupation - it was made after a lot of thought about the two rivers that make up Mesopotamia, a moon above for Islam, and a few other bits. What was missing though was the kind of common sense where a person would take a look at the flag and say "uh, that looks like Israel. They're not going to like that."