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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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 Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:54 pm Post subject: BBC declares everythings OK with Islam now! |
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| Quote: |
Turkish toil brings new form of faith
By Aasiya Lodhi
Producer, Night Waves, BBC Radio 3
Industrial and religious renewal go hand in hand in Turkey
In the Turkish city of Kayseri, Saffert Arsalan proudly shows off his furniture-making factory.
In little over a decade, Mr Arsalan's business has grown from a small enterprise to a multi-million pound international operation, exporting products to the United States, Germany and Israel.
It's an enormous success story for a man whose own father had been a carpet weaver, eking out a living in a traditional artisan economy.
Yet Mr Arsalan is not alone.
His native city is full of prospering entrepreneurs like him who are turning this former merchant trading town into a booming manufacturing hub.
Pro-business
Kayseri is one of a handful of cities industrialising at an astonishing rate in Anatolia, Turkey's central province and the country's Islamic heartland.
Unlike the big urban centres of Ankara and Istanbul, the population is made up of devout, conservative Muslims.
Kayseri is a rising centre of entrepreneurial spirit
Restaurants rarely serve alcohol, unmarried men and women don't mix on the streets, and there is little in the way of nightlife.
Yet the new entrepreneurialism sweeping across the province is providing an unlikely catalyst for a remarkable religious transformation.
A new form of Turkish Islam is emerging here, one which is pro-business and pro-free market, and it's being called Islamic Calvinism.
One of the first to use this description was the former mayor of Kayseri, Sukru Karatepe.
A softly-spoken man who taught sociology before entering politics, Karatape noticed striking similarities between the changes in Kayseri and the famous thesis of the German economist Max Weber, who argued that the strong work ethic of the Protestant movement gave birth to modern capitalism.
Sukru Karatepe coined the Islamic Calvinist phrase
"I had read Weber, who'd written about how Calvinists work hard, save money and then reinvest it into business," he says.
"To me, it seemed very similar to what was happening in Kayseri.
"People in Kayseri also don't spend money unnecessarily. They work hard, they pride themselves on saving money. Then they invest it and make more money.
"In fact, in Kayseri, working hard is a form of worship. For them, religion is all about the here and now, not the next life. Making money is a sign of God's approval, and this is also similar to what Weber said about the Calvinists."
Modern Islam
It is a view echoed by Gerald Knaus, director of the think-tank European Stability Initiative, which recently published a report on the Islamic Calvinist phenomenon in Anatolia.
"Those doing business in Kayseri themselves argue that Islam encourages them to be entrepreneurial," he says.
"They quote passages from the Quran and from the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad which read like a business manual. They tell me, it's important to create factories, to create jobs - it's what our religion tells us to do."
Turks in Kayseri reconcile piety with economic success
The label of Islamic Calvinism, however, has caused a furore in the Turkish press.
Critics say it's a Western conspiracy to Christianise Islam, but others have passionately argued in its favour, holding it up as a model for how Islam and modernity can co-exist.
One of its most prominent defenders has been Turkey's Deputy Prime Minister, Abdullah Gul, himself a native of Kayseri and the son of an entrepreneur.
He sees no contradiction in the term and argues that Turkey can provide a lasting template for a new kind of modern Islam.
"The most important thing to ask," he says, "is what kind of modernism do we want? Are you living in this world, or are you dreaming?
"The people in Kayseri are not dreaming - they are realistic, and that's the kind of Islam we need.
"They go to the mosque, they lead pious lives, but at the same time they are very active economically.
"This is what modernism means to me, and this is why this new Turkey will ultimately be an asset to the European Union."
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: BBC declares everythings OK with Islam now! |
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| dulouz wrote: |
| Quote: |
Turkish toil brings new form of faith
By Aasiya Lodhi
Producer, Night Waves, BBC Radio 3
Industrial and religious renewal go hand in hand in Turkey
In the Turkish city of Kayseri, Saffert Arsalan proudly shows off his furniture-making factory.
In little over a decade, Mr Arsalan's business has grown from a small enterprise to a multi-million pound international operation, exporting products to the United States, Germany and Israel.
It's an enormous success story for a man whose own father had been a carpet weaver, eking out a living in a traditional artisan economy.
Yet Mr Arsalan is not alone.
His native city is full of prospering entrepreneurs like him who are turning this former merchant trading town into a booming manufacturing hub.
Pro-business
Kayseri is one of a handful of cities industrialising at an astonishing rate in Anatolia, Turkey's central province and the country's Islamic heartland.
Unlike the big urban centres of Ankara and Istanbul, the population is made up of devout, conservative Muslims.
Kayseri is a rising centre of entrepreneurial spirit
Restaurants rarely serve alcohol, unmarried men and women don't mix on the streets, and there is little in the way of nightlife.
Yet the new entrepreneurialism sweeping across the province is providing an unlikely catalyst for a remarkable religious transformation.
A new form of Turkish Islam is emerging here, one which is pro-business and pro-free market, and it's being called Islamic Calvinism.
One of the first to use this description was the former mayor of Kayseri, Sukru Karatepe.
A softly-spoken man who taught sociology before entering politics, Karatape noticed striking similarities between the changes in Kayseri and the famous thesis of the German economist Max Weber, who argued that the strong work ethic of the Protestant movement gave birth to modern capitalism.
Sukru Karatepe coined the Islamic Calvinist phrase
"I had read Weber, who'd written about how Calvinists work hard, save money and then reinvest it into business," he says.
"To me, it seemed very similar to what was happening in Kayseri.
"People in Kayseri also don't spend money unnecessarily. They work hard, they pride themselves on saving money. Then they invest it and make more money.
"In fact, in Kayseri, working hard is a form of worship. For them, religion is all about the here and now, not the next life. Making money is a sign of God's approval, and this is also similar to what Weber said about the Calvinists."
Modern Islam
It is a view echoed by Gerald Knaus, director of the think-tank European Stability Initiative, which recently published a report on the Islamic Calvinist phenomenon in Anatolia.
"Those doing business in Kayseri themselves argue that Islam encourages them to be entrepreneurial," he says.
"They quote passages from the Quran and from the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad which read like a business manual. They tell me, it's important to create factories, to create jobs - it's what our religion tells us to do."
Turks in Kayseri reconcile piety with economic success
The label of Islamic Calvinism, however, has caused a furore in the Turkish press.
Critics say it's a Western conspiracy to Christianise Islam, but others have passionately argued in its favour, holding it up as a model for how Islam and modernity can co-exist.
One of its most prominent defenders has been Turkey's Deputy Prime Minister, Abdullah Gul, himself a native of Kayseri and the son of an entrepreneur.
He sees no contradiction in the term and argues that Turkey can provide a lasting template for a new kind of modern Islam.
"The most important thing to ask," he says, "is what kind of modernism do we want? Are you living in this world, or are you dreaming?
"The people in Kayseri are not dreaming - they are realistic, and that's the kind of Islam we need.
"They go to the mosque, they lead pious lives, but at the same time they are very active economically.
"This is what modernism means to me, and this is why this new Turkey will ultimately be an asset to the European Union."
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oh good, can I go back to hating the commies now? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder what the religious affiliation of the author of that peice is?
Hmm... |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| oh good, can I go back to hating the commies now? |
So you stopped? Shame on you! |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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That article is trying to sell the general public largely on Muslims' wonderful work ethic.
That's a matter all in itself.
"Bottom line" remains: fundamental Islam is a major social problem. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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So-called fundamentalists cause social problems, but Islam and Mohammad's teachings can, I think, be taken to the next level if a sincere, charismatic follower within that faith can somehow emerge and preach a strong message of peace and tolerance that resonates with the masses of Muslims.
I think that Muhammad did some apparently cruel, ungodly things that he thought were necessary at that time to elevate people who were at a very low level of spiritual development. In mundane consciousness, people think that killing human life for most any purpose is abominable (while killing cows is good...) However, sometimes wars are necessary to defeat demonic principles and establish godly ones.
Although Muhammad personally believed in the sanctity of "sacred images", in order to elevate idolators he preached strongly against such images, and he generally ordered his followers to destroy them. This excerpt from a series of essays relating Islam with "Hinduism" develops this theme:
The mission of the holy prophet Mohammed was to reestablish the worship of the only true God and stop idolatry, or unauthorized demigod worship. Although Mohammed factually accepted and respected all the sacred images as a genuine method to honor Allah, he could not reveal this confidential information because the people of his times were in a condition of great moral degradation. To have more than a wife was the rule and incestuous relations between mothers and sons were common.
The ancient Arabs believed in Allah, the only God, but actually they did not worship Him. They thought that Allah had entrusted the management of the various functions of the universe to different demigods. The faithful addressed these gods to invoke their blessings. They prayed to them to get the favor of Allah. The Arabs of the Syrian desert considered Al-Manat, the goddess of fortune, wife of Allah and mother of all the gods. Some deities as Al- lat, the goddess of heaven, and Al-Uzza, the goddess of Venus, were considered the daughters of Allah. The tribes of Yemen worshiped the sun. Others were worshiping the moon and still others the stars. Most of them worshiped idols. Traditions and rites were exclusively aimed to fulfill material desires. The degradation of the moral and religious principles had reached such a level where a messenger of God was necessary. Hazrat Muhammad (Mohammed) appeared in order to realize this plan of the Lord. Mohammed
Mohammed took birth at Mecca around 570 AD. His father died before his birth and his mother shortly after. It was his grandfather, the respectable Abdul Muttalib who took care of him. The Kaba was under the custody of his grandfather. This temple, built by Adam of Biblical reminiscence and rebuilt by others for the worship of the only one God, was called the House of Allah. However, the main objects of worship were 360 idols. Those who did not approve of this situation which prevailed since centuries were known as Hunafas. They practiced ascetic life and meditation. They often withdrew from social life and went to live in solitary places. Mohammed grew in the beginning as a devotee of the goddess Al-Uzza, but gradually he came to realize the anomalies in the religious practices of his people. He naturally came closer to the life style of the Hunafas. For one month in a year he withdrew from family life and lived in a cave in the desert. His place of meditation, Hira, was a desertic hill not far from Mecca. It was there that one night he received the first revelation of God through the angel Gabriel. During the rest of his life, Mohammed continued to receive revelations during which he was experiencing an ecstatic trance characterized by tremor and profuse perspiration. This trance induced him to shout and faint several times. The Koran (Al-Qur' an), the compilation of the revelations of Allah, was edited only after the demise of the prophet. Mohammed had to refound the religious consciousness of Islam. His task was to uproot the problem of idolatry which was like a spreading disease. In order to achieve this aim, he apparently acted in an extremely radical way. Once, anyhow, Mohammed accepted a sacred image. This happened during the conquest of Mecca. On that occasion he entered the Kaba and ordered the destruction of all the idols. There were paintings on the walls among which an image of the Holy Mary with baby Jesus. According to the tradition, Mohammed did not allow this image to be destroyed.
http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/connections/Islam.php#3 |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
I wonder what the religious affiliation of the author of that peice is?
Hmm... |
So now not only are ALL Muslims a threat to Western values, but any (supposed) Muslim writing positively about their people is part of a vast international conspiracy. Couch your phobia in any terms you like, Vern, but you stink of Nurnburg more and more with each passing day. Time to stop reading the Sun, methinks. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| So now not only are ALL Muslims a threat to Western values, but any (supposed) Muslim writing positively about their people is part of a vast international conspiracy. |
Would you trust a communist to give you an impartial analysis of communism? Likewise, I treat any statements by Muslims about the wonderfulness of Islam, with the deepest scepticism. Many of them tell outright lies about the history and tenets of Islam, confident in the fact that most infidels are wholly ignorant of their religion. You were obviously taken in by such approach.
Moreover, I have never said that ALL Muslims are a threat to Western values, or that any Muslim writing positively about Islam is part of a 'vast international conspiracy'. But, then you like such simplistic characterizations don't you? It means you can avoid some of the more uncomfortable aspects of your adopted ideology.
| Quote: |
| Couch your phobia in any terms you like, Vern, but you stink of Nurnburg more and more with each passing day. |
Actually, it is the followers of your religion, who in their gross intolerance and hatred (see the case in Afghanistan, plus many others) resemble the Nazis. It is Islam, which in the Shariah, has laws that directly discriminate against religious minorities, including the ban on infidel men marrying muslim women. Bears a striking similarity the laws which bear the name of the city you mentioned, don't you think? |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| In turning the subject on its head, you are always able to deflect criticism about your own motives, which I think warrant greater investigation. Although you deny blanket labeling of Muslims, you pretty much do so anyway as you imply no Muslim is capable of objective reporting. Blanket generalisations? You pretty much post only about topics concerning Muslims on a board that has little to do with that subject matter. That alone should suggest you are nothing more than some hate filled crank with an agenda. There, I said it. Its pretty easy to guess your next move, so fire away, Nazi. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:24 am Post subject: |
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A common tactic of people such as yourself, is to engage in amateur psychology, whereby you ascertain people's motives, as if this somehow refuted the points they make. Thus, people can be conveniently labelled 'Islamophobes', 'bigots', or the defamatory favourite 'Nazis', and their arguments dismissed. Can't be seen talking to Nazis now can we.
Sorry mate, it is your co-religionists, with their intolerant Shariah and Jew hatred who most resemble the followers of the Fuhrer.
When you do decide to challenge any of the points I make, with a reasoned response, I will be happy to debate with you. Until then, keep your juvenile insults to yourself. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
A common tactic of people such as yourself, is to engage in amateur psychology, whereby you ascertain people's motives, as if this somehow refuted the points they make. Thus, people can be conveniently labelled 'Islamophobes', 'bigots', or the defamatory favourite 'Nazis', and their arguments dismissed. Can't be seen talking to Nazis now can we.
Sorry mate, it is your co-religionists, with their intolerant Shariah and Jew hatred who most resemble the followers of the Fuhrer.
When you do decide to challenge any of the points I make, with a reasoned response, I will be happy to debate with you. Until then, keep your juvenile insults to yourself. |
Amatuer psychology? Its about all you need to work out your motives. You are a pass master in deflecting this kind of thing, but even someone without a deep understanding can see through you. Its the personal bias that shines through, and its easy to see why. As I said earlier, you post almost exclusively on a topic that has little or nothing to do with this board. Don't bother patronizing me and calling me mate either. I'm hardly going to be the mate of some sociopath who more likely than not still lives with his mother, spends his workless days bombarding message boards with hate-filled tomes before heading out to the pub, getting blathered on cheap lager and indulging in an orgy of hate with other like minded losers. It goes beyond challenging your points. You are very savvy at picking out individual cases and casting them as meta-theory to the entire Muslim world. Rather than take your simple-minded bigots approach to this issue, I can see the diversity of the Islamic world which you then merely refute by posing another example to back up your borderline racist tendencies. I've stated the need for reform of Islam, taken responsibility for 'my co-religionists', something that I have no moral imperative to do. Tell you what, next time someone English does something bad, for whatever reason and however grotesque, why don't you take some responsibility for it? Honestly, you are twice as smart as other posters who harp on this issue, such as rapier, but still lack the wit to know that in spamming this forum so prolifically your bigotry is there for all to see. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
| Honestly, you are twice as smart as other posters who harp on this issue, such as rapier, but still lack the wit to know that in spamming this forum so prolifically your bigotry is there for all to see. |
Bullseye.
I've said pretty much the same thing in PMs.
Right Lemon? [doubt that he wastes much time around here anymore...] |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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I hate North Korean muslims who live in Iran.  |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Whenever someone calls someone a "Nazi", I prefer to use the word "Rwandan". It took the Nazis at least 4 years to kill six million in the camps. It took Rwandans 2 weeks to kill 900,000. Rwandans killed much much more effectively than the Nazis did. Yet somehow, they've managed to avoid the label. Something else is going on in this debate.
Even now as Muslims carry out the worlds most active genocide, the only criticism is against the West because they don't grant asylum quick enough. I'm sorry, the worlds biggest buttholes are still Somalia, Pakistan and Afghanistan bought to you by Islam |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Sod you too Dulouz, as someone who said he wanted to send money to the BNP a while back, you have only one place in a debate on bigotry and that is to be lampooned and derided. Fascist scum. |
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