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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| Are any of the cases I cited so absurd that one could not call them democracies? |
Firstly, I never stated that Islam was incompatible with democracy. I stated quite clearly that Islam is 'incompatible with notions of freedom and human rights'. It is quite possible for a country to be a democracy, and to deny many of its citizens basic freedoms. It is quite possible for a Muslim nation to democratically elect religious zealots who then make it a crime to convert to another religion. That is what is known as the 'tyranny of the majority'.
Anyway, let's look at your examples and see if they refute the statement that Islam is 'incompatible with notions of freedom and human rights'.
Indonesia - a fledgling democracy that was a dictatorship for most of its history. Hundreds of Christian churches burned down, and many thousands of Christians killed. Three Christian schoolgirls recently beheaded by Muslim fanatics. Home to many Islamist groups including the group responsible for the terrorist atrocities in Bali. Hardly a shining beacon of Islamic tolerance.
Turkey - a relatively secular Muslim nation, largely due to the fact that Atuturk despised Islam as the 'backward theology of an immoral bedouin', and spent decades suppressing it. Thus, Turkey is relatively modern and secular because measures were taken to reduce the effect of Islam in public life. Remains to be seen whether this will remain the case.
Malaysia - Debateable whether Malaysia is a fully fledged democracy. Without the entrepreneurship and dilligence of the Indians and Chinese, it would most likely resemble the prosperity and tolerance of Indonesia. The Muslims know that any introduction of Shariah would send their nation into economic freefall. Hence the negative influence of Islam is kept in check.
Bangladesh - Becoming more like Pakistan by the day. Attacks on Christians and Hindus have grown worryingly, and there have been a spate of recent terrorist bombings. Will probably follow its cousin Pakistan in becoming a beacon of Islamic tolerance.
Senegal - I know very little about Senegal, so I won't comment. Let's assume, for one second, that it is a bastion of freedom, human rights and tolerance. Out of 30 or so Muslim nations, the best you can do is Senegal, and you even have the gall to present Indonesia and Bangladesh as models of how Islam is compatible with 'modernity' and human rights. It is a sad fact, but that is probably as good as Islam gets. The overwhelming evidence supports my position that Islam is not compatible with human rights and basic freedoms, and this becomes clearer with each passing day.
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| I stand with the Koranic verse that states there is no compulsion in religion. |
Are you a 'Koran only' Muslim then? Shame that so many learned scholars of your religion have come to the conclusion that there should be actually, quite a lot of compulsion in religion. Something to do with Mohammed's views on apostates. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: |
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And another thing.
Democracy IS incompatible with Islam. If someone actually follows Islam, like, all the bullsh$t the Koran and other edicts call for, then that person cannot be democratic. There is no such thing as a moderate muslim. If someone is moderate, they CANNOT be a muslim. muslims must submit to "allah" (hakkuna mattada) and all the nonsense that comes with it.
Now, if people were liberated from Islam, as most of the West has been from Christianity, then yes, people who are not called muslim could be democratic.
Why would anyone defend a religion?
Religion is nothing more than an artificial social construct that is designed to keep people in their places. Religion is a MEANs OF CONTROL. And Islam is the biggest, most badass means of control ever. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Turkey - a relatively secular Muslim nation, largely due to the fact that Atuturk despised Islam as the 'backward theology of an immoral bedouin', and spent decades suppressing it. Thus, Turkey is relatively modern and secular because measures were taken to reduce the effect of Islam in public life. Remains to be seen whether this will remain the case.
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You could, in fact, say the same thing about many(if not most) Catholic countries in Europe and South America. Beginning witht the French Revolution in 1789, liberal elites who were hostile to Catholicism took power in these places, and strove to eradicate Catholic influence over the state.
It's safe to say that at no point did the Catholic Church itself push for secularization in any country where the Catholic Church enjoyed a privileged relationship with the state. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: |
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I think it is safe to say that religion tends to be hostile to the political process. The political process of one where grey usually wins and negotiation is key. Hardly realities that grown men with imaginary friends can accept.
Democracy came to the West exactly because people had the balls to criticize the entrenched religion/political orthodoxy that was suppressing the Vast majority of people.
The exact same thing is happening today in muslim nations. Except at this stage in their cultural development the people want MORE Islam and MORE oppression and MORE mixing of the religion and political spheres of life.
Islam is going to be THE problem of the next 50 years. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
Anyway, let's look at your examples and see if they refute the statement that Islam is 'incompatible with notions of freedom and human rights'.
Indonesia - a fledgling democracy that was a dictatorship for most of its history. Hundreds of Christian churches burned down, and many thousands of Christians killed. Three Christian schoolgirls recently beheaded by Muslim fanatics. Home to many Islamist groups including the group responsible for the terrorist atrocities in Bali. Hardly a shining beacon of Islamic tolerance. |
You mentioned Poso Sulewsi in which a larger dispute between the Police and military had religious features. I backed this up earlier with mountains of evidence, you chose to ignore it. Recently, local governments tried to enforce sharia law in West Sumatra, the supreme court knocked it down, upholding minority rights. Islamist groups such as Laskar Jihad were fronts for members of the old order, Suharto-ite hardliners who wished to upset Indonesia's nascent democracy. If you read 'Reformasi' like I told you to earlier, you would know this. Again, you ignore any evidence pointing to the contrary.
| bigverne wrote: |
Turkey - a relatively secular Muslim nation, largely due to the fact that Atuturk despised Islam as the 'backward theology of an immoral bedouin', and spent decades suppressing it. Thus, Turkey is relatively modern and secular because measures were taken to reduce the effect of Islam in public life. Remains to be seen whether this will remain the case.
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Islam is still the dominant religion. It's an excellent example of a maturing democracy. All you can come up with is 'remains to be seen if this will remain the case'. They are moving towards some kind of arrangement with the EU, hardly evidence of a slide into despotism.
| bigverne wrote: |
| Malaysia - Debateable whether Malaysia is a fully fledged democracy. Without the entrepreneurship and dilligence of the Indians and Chinese, it would most likely resemble the prosperity and tolerance of Indonesia. The Muslims know that any introduction of Shariah would send their nation into economic freefall. Hence the negative influence of Islam is kept in check. |
Evidence of co-existence of faiths within a majority Islamic country. One of the best economies in SE Asia, a major drawcard for tourists. Human rights situation improving vastly. You said "The Muslims know that any introduction of Shariah would send their nation into economic freefall". Limited forms of this already exist in the Northern states. Shows how much you know. I fail to see the economic impact it has had.
| bigverne wrote: |
| Bangladesh - Becoming more like Pakistan by the day. Attacks on Christians and Hindus have grown worryingly, and there have been a spate of recent terrorist bombings. Will probably follow its cousin Pakistan in becoming a beacon of Islamic tolerance. |
Has has a woman President. Continues to strengthen its economy and democratic institutions in spite of a concerted campaign by Islamists. Womens' participation in the economy, especially in the self employed sector booming. Manufacturing base increasing. All you can come up with is likely to go the way of Pakistan. Who can you cite to back this up? Bigverne, is all.
| bigverne wrote: |
| Senegal - I know very little about Senegal, so I won't comment. Let's assume, for one second, that it is a bastion of freedom, human rights and tolerance. Out of 30 or so Muslim nations, the best you can do is Senegal, and you even have the gall to present Indonesia and Bangladesh as models of how Islam is compatible with 'modernity' and human rights. It is a sad fact, but that is probably as good as Islam gets. The overwhelming evidence supports my position that Islam is not compatible with human rights and basic freedoms, and this becomes clearer with each passing day. |
The shining light of west Africa. You deride countries in the developing world as your meta-theory cant resist the tension. Each example I have presented is a market economy in which women and minorities are very active. Chinese in Indonesia, Chinese and Indians in Malaysia. Hardly the hallmark of Dhimmitude. Indonesia has made huge steps towards stamping out terrorism (in conjunction with Australia) and human rights abuses whilst maintaining a secular constitution for over 50 years now. I don't know how closer you can get to modernity, yet you have the gall to renounce these countries, which you obviously know very little about, as bastions of backwardness. Have you ever visited any of those places I have mentioned? Probably not, you continue to glean your info from the Sun and more likely the Daily Sport.
| Quote: |
| I stand with the Koranic verse that states there is no compulsion in religion. |
Are you a 'Koran only' Muslim then? Shame that so many learned scholars of your religion have come to the conclusion that there should be actually, quite a lot of compulsion in religion. Something to do with Mohammed's views on apostates.[/quote]
The Islamic council of Australia actually denounced the Afghan ruling stating the same text from the Koran as I just used. I actually approach that one from a Libertarian perspective as my politics influence my beliefs much more than my religion which I have issues with. For that matter I have issues with most religions. But unlike you, I don't obsess over the issue 24/7 and devote an extrodinary amount of energy to a bigoted cause.
Love and Kisses
Jaga. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Afghan Journalist Sentenced To Death
By JASON STRAZIUSO and AMIR SHAH, Associated Press Writers
KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan journalist who was sentenced to death for distributing an article about Islam and women's rights is actually being punished for his brother's reporting on abuses by warlords, a media group said Wednesday.
Sayed Parwez Kaambakhsh, 23, was sentenced to death Tuesday by a three-judge panel in the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif for distributing a report he printed off the Internet to fellow journalism students at Balkh University.
The article and asks why men can have four wives but women can't have multiple husbands. It was written in the Iranian language of Farsi, which is similar to the Afghan language of Dari.
The judges said the article humiliated Islam, and members of a clerics council had pushed for Kaambakhsh to be punished.
The case now goes to the first of two appeals courts.
MORE ...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/afghan_journalist_death_penalty
;_ylt=ApEfSgomHo4l1NiS9UkoyAwDW7oF |
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