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Critiquing the critique of the war in Iraq.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:20 pm    Post subject: Critiquing the critique of the war in Iraq. Reply with quote

March 31, 2006
When Cynicism Meets Fanaticism
Critiquing the critique of the war in Iraq.
by Victor Davis Hanson


Opponents of the war in Iraq, both original critics and the mea culpa recent converts, have made eight assumptions. The first six are wrong, the last two still unsettled.

1. Saddam was never connected to al Qaeda, the perpetrators of 9/11.

2. There was no real threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.

3. The United Nations and our allies were justifiably opposed on principle to the invasion.

4. A small cabal of neoconservative (and mostly Jewish) intellectuals bullied the administration into a war that served Israel��s interest more than our own.

5. Saddam could not be easily deposed, or at least he could not be successfully replaced with a democratic government.

6. The architects of this war and the subsequent occupation are mostly inept (��dangerously incompetent��) — and are exposed daily as clueless by a professional cadre of disinterested journalists.

7. In realist terms, the benefits to be gained from the war will never justify the costs incurred.

8. We cannot win.

First, notice how the old criticism that Saddam was not connected to al Qaeda has now morphed into a fallback position that ��Saddam was not connected to September 11�� — even though the latter argument was never officially advanced as a casus belli.

Opponents have retreated to this position because we know that al Qaeda cadres were in Kurdistan, and that al Zarqawi fled to Baghdad, as did a mastermind of the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center, Abdul Rahman Yasin.

The Clinton administration in 1998 officially cited Iraqi agents as involved in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. That is part of the reason why the U.S. Senate, not the Bush administration, authorized a war against Saddam in October 2002: �� Whereas members of al-Qaeda, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq."

From the slowly emerging Baathist archives, we are learning that for more than a decade Saddam��s agents had some contacts with, and offered help to, al Qaeda operatives from the Sudan to the Philippines.

The issue is closed: Saddam Hussein��s regime had a mutually beneficial association with al Qaeda. All that remains in doubt is the degree to which Iraq��s generic support enabled al Qaeda to pull off operations like September 11. It may be that Saddam and Osama, in their views of Islam and jihad, were as antithetical to one another as Japanese and Germans were in attitudes about racial superiority. But in both cases, rogues find common ground in their opposition to hated Western liberalism

Second, we know now that worries over Iraqi weapons of mass destruction were both justified and understandable. Postwar interviews with top Iraqi generals reveal that Saddam��s own military assumed that his stockpiles of WMDs were still current — confirming the intelligence estimates from Europe and most of the Arab world.

In addition, Iraqi arsenals of WMDs, in the judgment of both the Clinton administration and the United Nations, were still unaccounted for in March 2003. And even if the stocks were moved or destroyed, the prerequisites for the rapid mass-production of biological and chemical agents — petrodollar wealth, scientific expertise, alternate-use facilities, and a will to produce and use them — were met in Saddam��s Iraq.

Third, the opposition of the United Nations to the invasion lacks any moral significance, given the postwar revelations that the $50 billion Oil-for-Food scandal not only led to thousands of starved Iraqi civilians, but also enriched both Saddam��s family and U.N. insiders themselves. Europe��s opposition may have seemed ethical, but when one learns of French and Russian oil deals with Saddam, and German construction projects that fortified Saddam��s own Führerbunker, European principle too evaporates into nothing.

Fourth, the charge of neocon plotting has now reemerged under a patina of academic respectability in a recent paper by Professor John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Harvard Kennedy School of Government academic dean Stephen Walt. ��Some Americans believe that this was a war for oil, but there is hardly any direct evidence to support this claim. Instead, the war was motivated in good part by a desire to make Israel more secure.�� At the tip of that Jewish spear was a ��band�� that was ��small,�� but of course still ��a driving force��: ��Within the US, the main driving force behind the war was a small band of neo-conservatives, many with ties to Likud.�� Instead of silly allegations of conspiracy theories, we are lectured ad nauseam that an ��Israeli lobby�� got us into Iraq.

This recrudescence of blaming Israel first is false for a variety of obvious reasons. Likud opposed much of American strategy. That is why Ariel Sharon was hated by his former base — and why there is now a new political party in Israel that suffers the same charge that it caves to American pressures all too easily. And far more influential than Israel in American academia and politics is the role of Gulf State petrodollars and worry over Middle East oil.

There is no need for an Israeli lobby in the United States, not when nearly 70 percent of the American people support Israel because it is an atoll of Western democratic values in a sea of theocracy and dictatorship. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice — no Jews there, just plenty of hard-headed veterans who are not easily hoodwinked by supposedly clever Straussians in the shadows.

Our point man in Iraq, who prior to the war urged the removal of Saddam Hussein, is Ambassador Zalmay M. Khalilzad — a Muslim and an Afghan-American. And our current general in charge of all American troops at Centcom in the Middle East, General John Abizaid, is an Arab-American. Meanwhile, the U.S. pressured Israel to get out of Gaza, to support elections on the West Bank that led to the victory of Hamas, and to dismantle more settlements.

Fifth, after the three-week victory of April 2003, we have now forgotten the earlier prognostications of millions of refugees, oil wells afire, and thousands of dead that were to follow in Iraq. Twenty-three hundred American fatalities are grievous losses, but must be weighed against three successful elections, and the real chance that such sacrifice might result in the first true Arab democracy emerging in Iraq, with ramifications beyond the Middle East for generations to come. Currently, tens of thousands of Iraqis are the only Arabs in the world who daily risk their lives to fight al Qaeda terrorists — something that just may be in America��s interest.

Sixth, we have not had another September 11. Two-thirds of the leadership of al Qaeda is dismantled. Fifty million people have voted in Iraq and Afghanistan. Syria is out of Lebanon. The Middle East is in democratic turmoil from the Gulf to Egypt and Libya, not mired in the old autocratic stasis. The Europeans are waking up to the dangers of Islamism as the Western world seeks to deal with a nuclear Iran.

Weigh that success against the behavior of the media that sees mostly American incompetence. At CBS, Dan Rather insisted to us that a clearly forged memo, but one that fit his own ideological agenda, was authentic. Michael Isikoff relied on one anonymous — and unreliable — source about the purported desecration of a Koran that had serious consequences for thousands in the Middle East. CNN��s executive Eason Jordan admitted that his network passed on coverage of a mass-murdering Saddam Hussein — and later he wrongly alleged that the American military deliberately targeted journalists in Iraq.

Now we hear Time Baghdad Bureau Chief Michael Ware, in a drunken, live interview (��In fact, I'm drinking now��I try to stay as drunk for as long as possible while I'm here��) from the heart of dry Muslim Iraq, recklessly throwing around charges that American soldiers are guilty of manhandling Iraqi women (��We've seen allegations that women have been mishandled or roughly handled. That always inflames passions��) and terrorizing civilians (��We've also seen insurgents criticize other insurgent groups, 'cause you're not doing enough to get the chicks out! I mean, that's how important it can be, this is a matter of great honor, and it's a spark��). Ware��s are precisely the lies and fantasies that feed the Islamists.

Indeed, the better example of ineptitude in this war lies with the media that demands from others apologies for incompetence that it will never offer itself. Few professions today ask so much of so many others and so very little of themselves.

Seventh, we won��t know the ultimate judgment of costs and benefits in Iraq until its parliament convenes and the executive government is formed and operates. If we leave now and a Lebanon follows, then, of course, the invasion was a costly mistake. If we secure the country for a constitutional government that brings freedom, order, and prosperity to its long-suffering people, then it will be the most welcomed global development since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Had the British and Americans quit in 1943 — after Pearl Harbor, the fall of Singapore and the Philippines, the Kasserine Pass, Tobruk, and other assorted disasters — then the carnage of 1939 to 1943 would have properly been seen as a tragedy that led not to emergence of a free Europe and a reborn Japan, but as needless sacrifice against the unstoppable juggernaut of Asian and German fascism.

As for the eighth complaint that we cannot win (or ��the war is lost��), the verdict is still in the future and depends mostly on us.

Our military cannot be defeated by either the Islamists or their autocratic supporters. We have the right strategy of hunting down terrorists, securing the homeland, and insidiously, but carefully, promoting democratic reform in the Middle East (an impossible notion, by the way, with the sinister presence of an oil rich and genocidal Saddam Hussein, given his history of attacking four of his neighbors.)

We have even articulated, at last, an exegesis of the dangers of radical Islam — why it hates Western freedom and how it thrives on the oil, misery, and dictatorship of the Middle East.

There remains this last unknown — how well can a liberal democracy, in its greatest age of affluence, leisure, and self-critical reflection, still fight a distant war against emissaries of the Dark Ages who seek to behead apostates, blow up democrats, and silence with death writers, journalists, and cartoonists. It is not just our democratic values versus their IEDs, but whether our idealism still has the resilience to defeat their nihilism.

Or put more directly: Can Western enlightenment and power, embedded in deep cynicism, still prevail over ignorance and self-inflicted pathology energized by fanaticism?

©2006 Victor Davis Hanson


http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson033106PF.html
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VDH is a little too in with the neo-cons for my comfort. Nevertheless, let's take what he claims at face value.

Quote:
1. Saddam was never connected to al Qaeda, the perpetrators of 9/11.


Okay, the Al Qaeda connection was definitely pushed to get a war on, and we are finding out that Bush was dead set against Saddam (wouldn't have been so bad if he had planned the action better!). But, it is coming out that Saddam was courting Al Qaeda, and we shouldn't be surprised.

Quote:
2. There was no real threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.


There certainly was, and VDH is right here. The Kay report investigates Saddam's great interest in acquiring long-range missiles from North Korea in 2002. What was he going to tip those with, MIRV oragami?

Quote:
3. The United Nations and our allies were justifiably opposed on principle to the invasion.


Sympathy to VDH on this one as well. First of all, who really cares what Putin's Russia and the CCP's China think about what is acceptable or unacceptable US military action? Second of all, even France's veto is tarnished by their connections to Saddam leading up to the invasion. Although, I am not going so far as to denegrate the French position. Even if they had wanted to be involved, they are held hostage by their radical Islamic population.

Quote:
4. A small cabal of neoconservative (and mostly Jewish) intellectuals bullied the administration into a war that served Israel��s interest more than our own.


Sorry, VDH, nice try working the anti-semitic angle, but there is no way to get around the last released memo. Bush wanted a war, no matter how bloody or disastrous or costly it would be for America. His cronies felt the same way. Yes, they were a cabal, and yes, they intimidated the CIA into selling this war for them.

Quote:
5. Saddam could not be easily deposed, or at least he could not be successfully replaced with a democratic government.


Come on, VDH! This is where you are delusional. Do you really think that a healthy vibrant democracy is going to come to Iraq? What prior democratic traditions do they hold? You have sectarian strife, and not even the American democracy could effectively deal with its African-American divisions over 150 years after the Civil War. Democracy in Iraq is doomed.

Quote:
6. The architects of this war and the subsequent occupation are mostly inept (��dangerously incompetent��) — and are exposed daily as clueless by a professional cadre of disinterested journalists


Most of them have been drummed out by now. The new Iraq policy is more effective and realistic, but the damage has been done by the old crew. Rumsfeld is still allowed free reign to torture and undermine the mission there, by the way.

Quote:
8. We cannot win.


What would winning mean? And this is closely tied with the seventh question, because before the US invaded, the WWII analogy was definitely inappropriate. Post-invasion, given what Al Qaeda has invested in Iraq, it might be a little more appropriate, although still also in the realm of hyperbole.

Quote:
7. In realist terms, the benefits to be gained from the war will never justify the costs incurred.


The costs incurred are very high from a financial standpoint. Not least because the current administration's domestic fiscal policy is disastrous. Meanwhile, 2k plus deaths and over 15k wounded over three years is nothing to be flippant about.

VDH doesn't understand that certain criticisms of the Iraq war do not qualify as deep cynicism. Even Andrew Sullivan has called VDH out on his monolithic support for this war, and you can hardly call the former anti-war.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
3. The United Nations and our allies were justifiably opposed on principle to the invasion.


Sympathy to VDH on this one as well. First of all, who really cares what Putin's Russia and the CCP's China think about what is acceptable or unacceptable US military action? Second of all, even France's veto is tarnished by their connections to Saddam leading up to the invasion. Although, I am not going so far as to denegrate the French position. Even if they had wanted to be involved, they are held hostage by their radical Islamic population.


Sorry, but argument 3 strikes me as a total straw man. I don't recall too many anti-war arguments that went like:

"The French and the Germans are such wonderful moral people, and we should listen to whatever they tell us to do in Iraq."

If I recall correctly, the French and the Germans(especially the French, because they have the UN seat) were first brought into the debate by the pro-war crowd, and the argument went like this:

"The French are such scumbags, and we shouldn't listen to a thing they tell us to do in Iraq".

Having said that, I am someone who thought that French arguments deserved consideration, not because I think the French are wonderful humanitarians(believe me, I don't), but because I think they probably have more understanding of the region that the neo-cons policymakers in Washington.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Quote:
5. Saddam could not be easily deposed, or at least he could not be successfully replaced with a democratic government.


Come on, VDH! This is where you are delusional. Do you really think that a healthy vibrant democracy is going to come to Iraq? What prior democratic traditions do they hold? You have sectarian strife, and not even the American democracy could effectively deal with its African-American divisions over 150 years after the Civil War. Democracy in Iraq is doomed.

[.


While I pretty much agree with the rest of your points I have to take issue with this one. Where exactly in the article did VDH state that a "healthy vibrant democracy" was going to come to Iraq? To the best of my recollection he said that it MAY (capitals are mine).

And I must say I believe that democracy can flourish in Iraq. Anyway it's much too early to make predictions of doom. As for prior democratic traditions that has nothing to do with the issue. What prior democractic traditions did say England or America hold back say before the Magna Carta or thereabouts? They were eventually established by people wanting a change. If Iraqis want change enough, it will happen.
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:39 am    Post subject: Re: Critiquing the critique of the war in Iraq. Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
Opponents of the war in Iraq, both original critics and the mea culpa recent converts, have made eight assumptions. The first six are wrong, the last two still unsettled.

1. Saddam was never connected to al Qaeda, the perpetrators of 9/11.


The idiot who wrote this takes after Dumbya: distort your opponents message to make it false, but rhetorically galvanizing and it then becomes reality.

Reality: There had been contact, it was never significant and Saddam certainly had nothing to do with 911.

Quote:
2. There was no real threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.


Trash. Reality: everyone knew there WERE, but the issue is only were there at the time of the war starting. We know the answer to that: No.

Quote:
3. The United Nations and our allies were justifiably opposed on principle to the invasion.


This is correctly stated, and true.

Quote:
4. A small cabal of neoconservative (and mostly Jewish) intellectuals bullied the administration into a war that served Israel��s interest more than our own.


Reality: Pure BS. Bush is fully responsible for his own idiocy. He wanted it, he got it. The man needed no prodding.

Quote:
5. Saddam could not be easily deposed, or at least he could not be successfully replaced with a democratic government.


Both correct thus far.

Quote:
6. The architects of this war and the subsequent occupation are mostly inept (��dangerously incompetent��) — and are exposed daily as clueless by a professional cadre of disinterested journalists.


Reality: Yup. Poorly planned, poorly executed and the assumptions they made were mindbogglingly off base.

Quote:
7. In realist terms, the benefits to be gained from the war will never justify the costs incurred.


Reality: Absolutely. From the ill-will created, the increases in fanaticism generated, the increases in the numbers of terrorists, the spread of the Muslim extremism to further reaches of the globe, the financial burden, the dead and maimed, the degradation of our constitutional rights... Not even close. What can we get from it? Nothing. There is less oil now, the ME is more unstable and will stay that way, Iraq will not end up with a stable, fully sectarian government.

Quote:
8. We cannot win.


See Vietnam.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:20 am    Post subject: Re: Critiquing the critique of the war in Iraq. Reply with quote

Quote:
The idiot who wrote this takes after Dumbya: distort your opponents message to make it false, but rhetorically galvanizing and it then becomes reality.

Reality: There had been contact, it was never significant and Saddam certainly had nothing to do with 911.


Saddam had no business having contact.

Quote:
2. There was no real threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.


Quote:
Trash. Reality: everyone knew there WERE, but the issue is only were there at the time of the war starting. We know the answer to that: No.


Saddam wasn't in compliance

Quote:
3. The United Nations and our allies were justifiably opposed on principle to the invasion.


Quote:
This is correctly stated, and true.


The UN was on Saddam's payroll and many countires were opposed to war because they didn't want the US to gain a strategic advantage in the mideast and even some cause they enjoyed seeing the US pinned having to contain Saddam forever.



Quote:
Reality: Pure BS. Bush is fully responsible for his own idiocy. He wanted it, he got it. The man needed no prodding.


The US policy before 9-11 was smart sanctions.

Quote:
5. Saddam could not be easily deposed, or at least he could not be successfully replaced with a democratic government.


Both correct thus far.



Quote:
Reality: Absolutely. From the ill-will created, the increases in fanaticism generated, the increases in the numbers of terrorists, the spread of the Muslim extremism to further reaches of the globe, the financial burden, the dead and maimed, the degradation of our constitutional rights... Not even close. What can we get from it? Nothing. There is less oil now, the ME is more unstable and will stay that way, Iraq will not end up with a stable, fully sectarian government.


the main reason for terror in the mideast is that regimes , elites, clerics and the state run medias overthere teach hate, incite violence, plan terror and fund Al Qaida. They have to be forced to stop.

The US will be getting military bases in Iraq.

iraq was not the whole war against terror , just part of a much larger war the US has planned.



Quote:
See Vietnam.



If you see Vietnam Iraq is nothing like it.

But there is one more reason why the US will not lose. It is this the US will not allow regimes, and elites in the mideast to support or allow terror against the US. The more the US gets hit the harder the US will hit back and the US can hit back much harder then they can and the US will.

If there is any doubt about this just remember the US Navy and Airforce are in very good condition.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 ......

say it enough times and you just might believe it.
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

catman wrote:
Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 , Saddam 9-11 ......

say it enough times and you just might believe it.


Now, that's what I call putting it in a nutshell. We've got a pithy radish, why not a pithy cat?
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Summer Wine



Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Reality: There had been contact, it was never significant and Saddam certainly had nothing to do with 911.


Ok, first I would like to make the statement that I never agreed initially with the decesion to invade Iraq. But that said and done, they are in Iraq now and I support the troops who are there doing a hard job.

In regards to the above quote, we must understand that any comment we make is one of hindsight, relying on information that we have today.

Following post 9/11 with Saddam being believed publicly to have nuclear weapons (NW) and no love for the US, support by neo cons to finish the job started in 1991 (me among them in 1991) was huge. It could be argued that fears of possibilities never truly considered prior 9/11 recieved new focus post 9/11 and influenced actions.

This resulted in the world we live in today. If the critics of the Iraqi problem (myself included) were able to provide a viable alternative (no I dont think just bringing home the troops and letting the region go to hell is viable), maybe criticisms would be more welcomed.

My option (my life isn't on the line) is staying the course until there is a viable option to civil war, then withdrawing all troops until asked to come back. While at the same time putting all focus into finding an alternative to oil. But these comments are made a 1000+ km from Iraq and must be taken accordingly.

(P.S, no personal attacks. criticisms of the argument are welcome).
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My option (my life isn't on the line) is staying the course until there is a viable option to civil war, then withdrawing all troops until asked to come back.


I understand what you're saying and why you would say it. But the problem with your argument is that prior to the 2-22 mosque bombing, people were already saying that the reason for the US to stay the course in Iraq is because things would be worse without them. But after 2-22, things pretty much got exponentially worse than they had been before. Nowadays, evey time you pick up the paper it seems a few dozen Iraqis are getting gunned down at a mosque, or thirty bodies are being found in a ditch somewhere. Not to mention the continuing American casualties.

Your argument MIGHT have some validity if it could be shown that things are getting better as the occupation goes on. Sorta like: "well, last year at this time there were thirty sectarian murders a day, now there are only five". But as far as I can tell, prior to 2-22, things were chugging along at a fairly stable level of badness, but post 2-22 they've gone completely into the toilet, with no noticable sign of a resurfacing. So I'm not exactly sure what wonderful status quo the Americans are supposed to be preserving in Iraq.

Remember, the whole point of 2-22 was likely to make things difficult for the Americans, and prompt a withdrawal. If the Americans had pulled out earlier, there probably wouldn't have been a 2-22. But preventing something like 2-22 was one of the reasons they were staying in Iraq. How long do you want this self-defeating cycle to continue?
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Summer Wine



Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How long do you want this self-defeating cycle to continue?


Personally not another second if that means that 10 yrs from now we look back at it and call it a waste and say the Americans lost the war.

Where do you see it going and what is a viable option?

I believe that sometimes you do need a strong man to help support the weak. My country walked a road in the past that would have been self destructive if not for the US. not every body understood that at the time.

We sometimes walk the roads that we must walk, the US theirs, the Iraqi's theirs, should the people of the world surrender to violence if it reigns supreme?

I understand the changes, maybe all Iraqis hate the US that much that they will self annialite themselves in a civil war.

Though as an individual speaking only for myself, I must say that the few who dont agree with civil war in Iraq would surely clutch at straws. It is then the strong who can sometimes offer those straws and not the weak.

Don't think that means I agree with overbearing, arrogant atttitudes that are more of a problem than a benefit, but please don't give up on the peace lovers of Iraq, help those who can't help themselves. Don't let the civil war come because you see it as inevitable, support peace or at least non civil war. Isn't it the option of others to help a weaker one, are we the citizens of the world incapable of finding solutions to todays problems?

(I am not North American, if that in any way helps you to psyco-analyze my writings or simply decide the manner in which you criticise them Laughing )
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Quote:
6. The architects of this war and the subsequent occupation are mostly inept (��dangerously incompetent��) � and are exposed daily as clueless by a professional cadre of disinterested journalists


Most of them have been drummed out by now. The new Iraq policy is more effective and realistic, but the damage has been done by the old crew. Rumsfeld is still allowed free reign to torture and undermine the mission there, by the way.


What about "the professional cadre of disinterested journalists"?
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
How long do you want this self-defeating cycle to continue?



Personally not another second if that means that 10 yrs from now we look back at it and call it a waste and say the Americans lost the war.


I think that is what will be said about it whether they leave now or in 10 years.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not so sure, On the Other Hand. Some policymakers, for example, feel that Vietnam made a difference in Southeast Asia by demonstrating that the U.S. was willing to resist Communist advances until the bitter end.

Others, of course, like McNamara, argue that Communism would not have advanced into Thailand or Indonesia in any case.

This remains a point of contention.

So, too, will it remain a point of contention with respect to Iraq. The problem is, we can only guess at what might have happened, or not happened, had things been done differently.

One thing is for certain, though. I don't think too many enemy nation-states will think of us as a "paper tiger" anymore. And from one perspective, that might have been one of the points this war was intended to make in the Middle East -- that is, that our tolerance for unsavory, hostile dictatorships has limits.
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khyber



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just out of curiousity:
with the except of Israel, is there ANY middle eastern country that could be argued DOES NOT have ANY ties to AQ?
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