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US beginning to lose Space Race
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:22 am    Post subject: US beginning to lose Space Race Reply with quote

Good. Well, maybe. Space really should be done by private companies and maybe people will still miss that even if tension from a new space race brings things up to speed a little.

Good = competition is good. I've been impressed with the series of successes in the Mars program, the rovers are absolutely amazing, Cassini is perfect, New Horizons is heading to Pluto and the Dawn mission just got reinstated. A little pressure can only make things better.

The article's a bit long so I'll put certain parts in bold that should be paid attention to.

Quote:
U.S. Losing Unofficial Space Race, Congressmen Say
By Larry Wheeler
FLORIDA TODAY
posted: 31 March 2006
11:33 a.m. ET

WASHINGTON - Some congressmen believe the United States and China are in an unacknowledged space race that this country could lose if it doesn't spend more money on the civilian space program.

The communist nation's military runs its manned space program, employs an estimated 200,000 workers and has set a goal of putting an astronaut on the moon by 2017.

By contrast, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration is a civilian government program with a limited budget that directly employs fewer than 20,000 civil servants and has lost the commanding lead it once held over the rest of the world in human space exploration.

"We have a space race going on right now and the American people are totally unaware of all this," said Rep. Tom DeLay, the Texas Republican whose district includes Johnson Space Center near Houston.

The theme, which is not new, emerged again Thursday at a Capitol Hill hearing where lawmakers were quizzing NASA Administrator Mike Griffin about the Bush administration's budget request for the space program.

This time, though, lawmakers sounded as if they might be willing to do more than just talk about the issue.

Griffin was asked to produce in 30 days an unclassified report to Congress containing an assessment of the Chinese space program and its goals.

Rep. Frank Wolf, R-Va., chairman of the House Appropriations subcommittee with NASA oversight, said he would hold a hearing on the subject to coincide with the report's release.

Griffin acknowledged that China's new Shenzou spaceships are capable of supporting a crew on a round-trip mission to the moon.

But their Long March rockets are not powerful enough to get them there, he said.

The United States has neither a crew vehicle nor a rocket capable of making a moon run.

The shuttle is designed for low Earth orbit only.

NASA has begun work on a lunar Crew Exploration Vehicle, but it won't be operational until 2013 or 2014 because of budget constraints, Griffin said.

Its new heavy-lift rocket won't be ready until even later, he said.

NASA's timeline predicts the new rocket and crew vehicle will be ready for a mission to the moon in 2018, a year later than the Chinese target.

The U.S. space agency is known for missing planned deadlines for major projects.

"We need to do more," Rep. Dave Weldon, R-Indialantic, said.

Griffin said NASA's new lunar vehicles and rockets could be delivered sooner if more money is made available, but he added that he's not advocating such a change.

DeLay indicated he's willing to push for more money because the stakes are so high.

"We had a 40-year lead in space and we're giving it up," he said. "The U.S. is quibbling over $3 billion to $5 billion. It's amazing to me."

The China space-race discussion was touched off by Rep. Mark Kirk, an Illinois Republican who in February participated in the first U.S. government delegation visit to China's remote space launch facility.

"The American people have no idea how massive the China space program is," Kirk said.

The first-of-its-kind, behind-the-scenes tour revealed a modern high-tech facility that would be the envy of NASA employees, some of whom still work out of buildings more than 40 years old, Rep. Tom Feeney, R-Oviedo, told FLORIDA TODAY in February after participating in the China tour.
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Bulsajo



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a great day for Brazil.
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Pligganease



Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The moon is the 52nd state, and if China invades it we should attack them... Wink
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AbbeFaria



Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOoo, we're Chinese, we're going to get to the moon 60+ years after the Americans, fear us, see our might and tremble. Pfft. Since our flag is still there, doesn't that make it ours (the US)? What exactly are the rules for that sort of thing? We're the only ones who've ever been there. We give away all the technology and findings we make in space, I think that would entitle us to something. We should be selling that crap. And, I still want to know the results of the rumored zero-G sex. It's one of those things that NASA doesn't talk about, but you know they tried it. Spill it. Zero-G porn, it'll be the next big thing.

��S��
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gypsyfish



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pligganease wrote:
The moon is the 52nd state, and if China invades it we should attack them... Wink


What's 51?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gypsyfish wrote:
Pligganease wrote:
The moon is the 52nd state, and if China invades it we should attack them... Wink


What's 51?


Taiwan. Laughing
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rapier



Joined: 16 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NASA were so desperate to attract funding ,that they announced that they had almost discovered life on mars and maybe water.
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Benbby



Joined: 06 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the 51st state. Canada, Israel some say. Although lately, the way the US kowtows to Israel the US seems like a colony of Israel.

Space is too dangerous, expensive and huge for a space race beyond a decade or two. How far can one country get? We have to work out our political problems on earth first. Although space tourism might cause a change.

When Richard Branson of Virgin Airways/Galactic said he would have flights in about three years costing $250,000, other firms have said they will have the same 15 minute flights for $100,000. Deflation already! I love space hype.

Holidays on the moon in fifteen years. Space hotels in ten.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're making a mountain out of a moehill and forgetting that Delay had his own reasons for feeding such a last-ditch, dramatic story last week.

In any case, "the Space Race" occurred in the 1960s when the Soviets and the Americans competed for "control" of the skies in the Cold War.

There has been no race for decades -- disinterest has mostly been the order of the day around the world.

Should the Chinese or anyone else for that matter begin attempting nationalistic, strategic gain via space means, the U.S. would probably engage "the race" again, likely with similar results -- that is, dominance. OP may be focused on a temporary condition and focus on other priorities in the U.S. govt and not recognizing the U.S.'s pretty strong permanent capability with respect to space technology.

Don't forget, too, that being such a unitary, monolithic place, China could easily go either way. It has before. In the fifteenth century it shut down its own sea exploration program for internal political reasons and an aversion to the outside world.


Last edited by Gopher on Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
We're making a mountain out of a moehill and forgetting that Delay had his own reasons for feeding such a last-ditch, dramatic story last week.

In any case, "the Space Race" occurred in the 1960s when the Soviets and the Americans competed for "control" of the skies in the Cold War.

There has been no race for decades -- disinterest has mostly been the order of the day around the world.

Should the Chinese or anyone else for that matter begin attempting nationalistic, strategic gain via space means, the U.S. would probably engage "the race" again, likely with similar results -- that is, dominance. OP may be focused on a temporary condition and focus on other priorities in the U.S. govt and not recognizing the U.S.'s pretty strong permanent capability with respect to space technology.


I should hope so. One big problem the US has now is the fact that it doesn't have anything capable of sending people up into space any more. Not that I'm a big fan of human spaceflight; I think it's mostly a waste of money at this point in time. I actually think it's good for space development overall as it forces a cooperative relationship between the US and Russia until the US develops a new launch vehicle.

I'd like to see a race again, though it wouldn't be in the same spirit at all. I assume it would be more along the same feeling as an Olympic event, considering that none of the competitors actually dislike each other (ie, Iran et al aren't in it).
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mithridates wrote:
I'd like to see a race again, though it wouldn't be in the same spirit at all. I assume it would be more along the same feeling as an Olympic event, considering that none of the competitors actually dislike each other (ie, Iran et al aren't in it).


Not the Olympics but the Age of Exploration (and conquest).

Think of Columbus and Vasco de Gama et al.

And it is not so much the economic motivation/incentive that is missing -- isn't it already well understood that there is probably great mineral wealth waiting to be exploited in the asteroid belt? -- so much as that we are not compelled to leave like they were.

I also get the feeling that we need some new technology, like the ability to travel reliably outside of our own solar system or at least the ability to rapidly cover the distance between us and Mars to set up and sustain a colony there.

Something is missing to motivate us to do this.
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Bulsajo



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:


Something is missing to motivate us to do this.


Humanity, the universe's slackers- you have to light a fire under our asses to get us to do anything worthwhile.
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
mithridates wrote:
I'd like to see a race again, though it wouldn't be in the same spirit at all. I assume it would be more along the same feeling as an Olympic event, considering that none of the competitors actually dislike each other (ie, Iran et al aren't in it).


Not the Olympics but the Age of Exploration (and conquest).

Think of Columbus and Vasco de Gama et al.

And it is not so much the economic motivation/incentive that is missing -- isn't it already well understood that there is probably great mineral wealth waiting to be exploited in the asteroid belt? -- so much as that we are not compelled to leave like they were.

I also get the feeling that we need some new technology, like the ability to travel reliably outside of our own solar system or at least the ability to rapidly cover the distance between us and Mars to set up and sustain a colony there.

Something is missing to motivate us to do this.


Definitely. That's why it's my opinion that we should be spending 100% of our effort on robotic probes and various telescopes instead of human exploration. The proposed and later cancelled Terrestrial Planet Finder would have been able to take a look at other star systems and find planets extremely quickly - the ESA is proposing something like that called Darwin but it's not certain.
There are a few others by NASA / others that will be launched in the next few years like the James Webb Space Telescope in 2013 or so.
A serious commitment to non-manned space exploration would eventually lead to something seriously worthy of attention of the average person eventually, and is way more cost-effective than the Shuttle which has costed a total of $1.5 billion per launch, whereas the rovers on Mars that have been going for over two years now are under a billion for both and only require a small engineering team to keep going.
This is the kind of thing that should be funded, not the Shuttle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Prometheus
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red headed stranger



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:


Something is missing to motivate us to do this.


I bet seeing the Chinese land on the moon, followed by placing a Chinese flag where the US flag used to be would be quite a motivation.
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rapier



Joined: 16 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:


Something is missing to motivate us to do this.


Perhaps the knowledge that the search for extra terrestrial life has already proved a waste of time, and that suspicion that a human colony on mars is a similar fiction invented to keep the publics imagination and support alive.
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