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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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 Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
Something is missing to motivate us to do this. |
Perhaps the knowledge that the search for extra terrestrial life has already proved a waste of time, and that suspicion that a human colony on mars is a similar fiction invented to keep the publics imagination and support alive. |
Yep, could you imagine the world being circular? And why bother wasting all those ships and people who never come back charting the Atlantic ocean to see if there is land on the other side. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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The world was already described in the bible as being circular, several millenia ago. Scientists simply fulfilled what was already written.
This is my point. Why waste billions of $ in a futile attempt to find extraterrestrial life when the bible strongly implies that it doe not exist, that the earth is the only place fit for life. if you spent the same money researching what is already hinted at/explained in the bible, then you wouldn't waste funds, because you'd get the result every time. Science and archaeology has only confirmed the bible at every turn. Strange that the "age of reason" in the 17th/18th centuries were so quick to discard the bible.
Nobody has found life on mars/extraterrestrial life. And they won't.
Last edited by rapier on Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
The world was already described in the bible as being circular, several millenia ago. Scientists simply fulfilled what was already written.
This is my point. Why waste billions of $ in a futile attempt to find extraterrestrial life when the bible strongly implies that it doe not exist, that the earth is the only place fit for life. if you spent the same money researching what is already hinted at/explained in the bible, then you wouldn't waste funds, because you'd get the result every time.
Nobody has found life on mars/extraterrestrial life. And they won't. |
We could use the money saved employing scholars to try to make some sense of the bible. And the koran. And every other religious text. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
We could use the money saved employing scholars to try to make some sense of the bible. |
The knowledge is already there, its just that people ignore it as they don't want to admit to the existence of God.
if you found a 3000 yr old manuscript that put forth the following ideas, wouldn't you find it astonishing?
*The earth rotates on an axis.
*The earth is round.
*Accurately describes the water cycle- condensation/precipitation etc.
etc etc.
Did you know that Christopher Columbus and Isaac newton directly attribute their discoveries to the bible, and inspiration from God?
http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0027_Scientific.html
Did you know that archaeology proves the bible at every turn..even the discovery of dinosaurs?
http://dejnarde.ms11.net//archaeology_page.htm
If you are trying to fix your car...someone gives you a manual written by the designer of the car. ..Do you throw it away and continue trying to figure it out on your own? No. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| jaganath69 wrote: |
We could use the money saved employing scholars to try to make some sense of the bible. |
The knowledge is already there, its just that people ignore it as they don't want to admit to the existence of God.
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| jaganath69 wrote: |
We could use the money saved employing scholars to try to make some sense of the bible. |
The knowledge is already there, its just that people ignore it as they don't want to admit to the existence of God.
if you found a 3000 yr old manuscript that put forth the following ideas, wouldn't you find it astonishing?
*The earth rotates on an axis.
*The earth is round.
*Accurately describes the water cycle- condensation/precipitation etc.
etc etc.
Did you know that Christopher Columbus and Isaac newton directly attribute their discoveries to the bible, and inspiration from God?
http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0027_Scientific.html
Did you know that archaeology proves the bible at every turn..even the discovery of dinosaurs?
http://dejnarde.ms11.net//archaeology_page.htm
If you are trying to fix your car...someone gives you a manual written by the designer of the car. ..Do you throw it away and continue trying to figure it out on your own? No. |
And religious folk of every stripe have justified all manner of horrors through religious texts. If someone gives me a car manual, I'll use it to fix my car, if someone gives me a manuscript, written by premodern desert tribe and subsaquently mistranslated over the millenia by all manner of people with a political point to prove, I'll probably ignore it. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
And religious folk of every stripe have justified all manner of horrors through religious texts. |
Indeed, but that is their problem and does not reflect on the text itself. If I said that Shakespeare inspired me to poison someone, then would hamlet be banned worldwide?
| Quote: |
| written by premodern desert tribe |
 written over many centuries by unconnected people of all walks of life- military generals to farmers- and still reataining an authenticitiy, without contradicting itself, and depicting the fulfillment of prophecy from centuries before, revealing scientific facts confirmed millenia afterwards.
| Quote: |
| and subsaquently mistranslated over the millenia by all manner of people |
The original texts are still available. heard of the red sea scrolls? Yes, atheists have made repeated (although minor) attempts to mistranslate it and discredit it.
| Quote: |
| I'll probably ignore it |
People ignore whatever they want to, for reasons of their own. it has little to do with fact. The basic (fallen) instinct of humans is to reject the authority of their creator, and they will find never ending excuses to do this, despite the facts proving them wrong at every turn. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
| jaganath69 wrote: |
We could use the money saved employing scholars to try to make some sense of the bible. |
The knowledge is already there, its just that people ignore it as they don't want to admit to the existence of God.
if you found a 3000 yr old manuscript that put forth the following ideas, wouldn't you find it astonishing?
*The earth rotates on an axis.
*The earth is round.
*Accurately describes the water cycle- condensation/precipitation etc.
etc etc.
Did you know that Christopher Columbus and Isaac newton directly attribute their discoveries to the bible, and inspiration from God?
http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0027_Scientific.html
Did you know that archaeology proves the bible at every turn..even the discovery of dinosaurs?
http://dejnarde.ms11.net//archaeology_page.htm
If you are trying to fix your car...someone gives you a manual written by the designer of the car. ..Do you throw it away and continue trying to figure it out on your own? No. |
And religious folk of every stripe have justified all manner of horrors through religious texts. If someone gives me a car manual, I'll use it to fix my car, if someone gives me a manuscript, written by premodern desert tribe and subsaquently mistranslated over the millenia by all manner of people with a political point to prove, I'll probably ignore it. |
You'd be alone in this opinion if you were grouped with the most brilliant minds in literature, theology, and even (as Rapier is suggesting) pre-20th century science. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| jaganath69 wrote: |
And religious folk of every stripe have justified all manner of horrors through religious texts. |
Indeed, but that is their problem and does not reflect on the text itself. If I said that Shakespeare inspired me to poison someone, then would hamlet be banned worldwide?
| Quote: |
| written by premodern desert tribe |
written over many centuries by unconnected people of all walks of life- military generals to farmers- and still reataining an authenticitiy, without contradicting itself, and depicting the fulfillment of prophecy from centuries before, revealing scientific facts confirmed millenia afterwards.
| Quote: |
| and subsaquently mistranslated over the millenia by all manner of people |
The original texts are still available. heard of the red sea scrolls? Yes, atheists have made repeated (although minor) attempts to mistranslate it and discredit it.
| Quote: |
| I'll probably ignore it |
People ignore whatever they want to, for reasons of their own. it has little to do with fact. The basic (fallen) instinct of humans is to reject the authority of their creator, and they will find never ending excuses to do this, despite the facts proving them wrong at every turn. |
Good oh, I'll just keep on putting my faith in rationality and science until the almighty comes down from above and reveals him or herself to me. I think you meant the dead sea scrolls as well. The Red Sea was the one that was 'parted'. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
I'll just keep on putting my faith in rationality and science until the almighty comes down from above and reveals him or herself to me. |
Rationality and science is from the bible itself. How do you explain the fact that widespread Scientific discoveries came about during the time of the reformation period (when the bible was suddenly translated and made available to people).
The preceding dark ages where the bible was witheld, knew no scientific discoveries. Or that the major scientists of that time claimed to be inspired by the bible, and saw no conflict between it and science? |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| jaganath69 wrote: |
I'll just keep on putting my faith in rationality and science until the almighty comes down from above and reveals him or herself to me. |
Rationality and science is from the bible itself. How do you explain the fact that widespread Scientific discoveries came about during the time of the reformation period (when the bible was suddenly translated and made available to people).
The preceding dark ages where the bible was witheld, knew no scientific discoveries. Or that the major scientists of that time claimed to be inspired by the bible, and saw no conflict between it and science? |
Ummm, I think you have your causation all mixed up there mate. The Bible becoming widely distributed at the time was due to the expansion of technology (not the other way around) and social, economic and political changes owing to a challenging of the religious orthodoxy of the day.
Saying that the relative drudgery of the Middle Ages was due to lack of Bible proliferation is a furphy. Can you back that up with a credible historical source? Its like attributing the learning boom in Baghdad and the Muslim world to the Koran. Not so, there were several underlying political factors that were contingent in that particular epoch.
I appreciate the fact that you are passionate about this and its nice to know that you find assurance in your faith. However, if you are going to make the kind of grand, all-encompassing claims that you do, find the time to back them up, rather relying on your conviction alone. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:38 am Post subject: |
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It wasn't technonlogy that sparked the reformation. It was a dissatisfaction with corrupt papal authority:
1517 - The Protestant Reformation begins; Martin Luther nails his "95 Theses" against the Catholic practice of selling indulgences, on the church door at Wittenberg.
http://www.britannia.com/history/reftime.html
Timeline of scientific discovery.
BC
1600s BC
- Venus tablet of Ammisaduqa: first known Babylonian astronomical observations
360s BC - Eudoxus of Cnidus: first Greek planetary models
350s BC - Heraclides: rotation of Earth:
200s BC - Eratosthenes: Measured the size of the earth, distance to the sun and to the moon.
1200s
12?? - Robert Grosseteste: rudimentals of the scientific method (also: Roger Bacon)
1300s
13?? - William of Ockham: Occam's Razor
1500s
1543 - Copernicus: the earth revolves around the sun
1543 - Vesalius: human anatomy
1600s
1609 - Johannes Kepler: first two laws of planetary motion
1610 - Galileo Galilei: Sidereus Nuncius: telescopic observations
1614 - John Napier: use of logarithms for calculation [1]
1628 - William Harvey: Blood circulation
1637 - René Descartes: Scientific method
1662 - Robert Boyle: Boyle's law of ideal gas [2]
1675 - Leibniz, Newton: infinitesimal calculus
1687 - Newton: Laws of motion, law of universal gravitation, basis for classical physics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_scientific_discoveries
As you can see, very little scientific discovery occurred until after the reformation, when christianity had taken hold and allowed an environment condusive to scientific discovery and learning.
What great technological achievements just prior to the reformation were you referring to exactly? Please do tell. |
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AbbeFaria
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Why does everything have to be about God with you people. Jeez. That guy sticks his nose in every friggin' thing.
��S�� |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
It wasn't technonlogy that sparked the reformation. It was a dissatisfaction with corrupt papal authority:
1517 - The Protestant Reformation begins; Martin Luther nails his "95 Theses" against the Catholic practice of selling indulgences, on the church door at Wittenberg.
http://www.britannia.com/history/reftime.html
Timeline of scientific discovery.
BC
1600s BC
- Venus tablet of Ammisaduqa: first known Babylonian astronomical observations
360s BC - Eudoxus of Cnidus: first Greek planetary models
350s BC - Heraclides: rotation of Earth:
200s BC - Eratosthenes: Measured the size of the earth, distance to the sun and to the moon.
1200s
12?? - Robert Grosseteste: rudimentals of the scientific method (also: Roger Bacon)
1300s
13?? - William of Ockham: Occam's Razor
1500s
1543 - Copernicus: the earth revolves around the sun
1543 - Vesalius: human anatomy
1600s
1609 - Johannes Kepler: first two laws of planetary motion
1610 - Galileo Galilei: Sidereus Nuncius: telescopic observations
1614 - John Napier: use of logarithms for calculation [1]
1628 - William Harvey: Blood circulation
1637 - René Descartes: Scientific method
1662 - Robert Boyle: Boyle's law of ideal gas [2]
1675 - Leibniz, Newton: infinitesimal calculus
1687 - Newton: Laws of motion, law of universal gravitation, basis for classical physics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_scientific_discoveries
As you can see, very little scientific discovery occurred until after the reformation, when christianity had taken hold and allowed an environment condusive to scientific discovery and learning.
What great technological achievements just prior to the reformation were you referring to exactly? Please do tell. |
Technology didnt play a large role in the reformation? Ever heard of the Gutenburg press? Besides the point though, I said dissemination of the Bible to a wider audience was the result of technology, not the other way around. The moveable type press was invented in 1448 (appologies to Koreans). Claiming that technological innovation stemmed from dissemination of one book is simply fallacious, its more likely the preceeding print technology allowed the spread of learning materials. Your explanation hinges it all on the Bible, making out to be the sole reason for the explosion of technology at the time. Lets also not forget the Papacy's role as patron of many of the scientific and artistic achievements of that era.
Take a peek here too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Gutenberg#Legacy |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: |
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400 billion stars per galaxy.
240 billion galaxies.
At least 100 major astronomical bodies per star.
Who knows what else in the space between.
15 billion years.
Total of (very approximate) 144,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years of total time on the combined number of bodies in the universe to work with.
One cup has a million grains of sand, and there are 4.22675282 �� 10^12 cups in a cubic kilometre, and our planet has a total of 1340 million km�� of oceans. That means that if every grain of sand represented a year on some body somewhere in the universe, we would need the space of 25 million oceans to show it all. Or in other words, 25 cups of sand where each grain represents the oceans of the Earth full of sand where a single grain is a year...
How could anyone possibly think that we are alone?
(just in case anyone is thinking about bringing up the fact that 80% of stars are red dwarfs, they're just as capable of having life in their systems as other stars - see this)
The biggest problem with space today is that people think of it as a vague black mass that's kind of big. That's kind of like me taking a pice of lint from the pocket of a pair of pants someone bought in the US, giving it a good look and concluding that the US is kind of like the lint...but kind of bigger. Shrug.
"What if the US is something totally different and vast than this part of it you know?"
"What do you mean? I've looked at the lint up and down, I know what it's made of, it kind of traps heat and it's a greyish colour. So is the US. Er, isn't it? Or maybe it's a bit different than the lint, whatever. Bigger lint, different colour, sure. I can pretty much extrapolate from what I know so no need to think about it."
(oh, and feel free to make sure my rough calculation is right) |
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