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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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What I want to see is a president who:
-doesnt bend over for NK.
-will halt all shipments of rice, fertilizer, money to NK unless NK actually does something to earn trust.
-will shut down all businesses that put money in KJI's pockets. Keasong is a good start. It makes KJI rich and uses what is practically slave labor. Its sick.
-will join the PSI and help stop NK's smuggling of counterfeit money, drugs and weapons.
-will confront NK about human rights
-will call a spade a spade: KJI is a criminal and the people who disappeared were abducted and/or kidnapped.
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Okay. Let's say you get a president like that. Would you care to provide us with a scenario about what's supposed to happen after SK starts making all these demands?
I think the Sunshine crowd and the "get tough" crowd both make the same mistake, ie. they overestimate the influence that South Korea has over the North. I agree with Bulsajo that SK remains largely irrelevant, in comparison to NK's other international contacts.
I've seen a few articles recently about China's economic development at or near the NK border, and how South Korean policy wonks are starting to worry that Seoul will soon be eclipsed by Beijing in terms of influence over the North. And remember when KJI went to China for some sort of consultation a few months back, and neither North Korea or China felt obligated even to tell the South where he was? |
A scenario? SK keeps the tap turned off totally until NK comes around. And if not, let China worry about them. SK has no influence over NK and Im not saying they do. What Im saying is that China is not doing anything about NK because the pay off is higher than the costs. let them shoulder 100% of the burden and see how long NK keeps acting up. SK has no influence over NK directly because NK laughs at them. This is the idiotic way of thinking that has lead us to where we are. How is SK supposed to have influence over NK when all it ever does is reward them for bad behavior? The worse NK gets the more fertilizer, rice and money SK gives. If SK wants to have any influence over NK it has to grow a spine. Tough measures and actual expectations for the aid Seoul sends over. Right now NK just laughs at SK because they know they will get anything they want..if they scream loud enough, they may even get more. The SK policy guys are so wrong about this that it boggles the mind. China has always had more influence over Nk than SK because China actually has a spine and would be willing to do something about NK if it ever got to a point where their interests were being threatened. NK knows this, thats why KJI goes to Beijing whenever he is summoned. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:18 am Post subject: |
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What does North Korea expect? These are soldiers, after all. Soldiers must be trained. That's what they do.
They might as well threaten nuclear war unless the South Korean Armed Forces and USFK are given lessons in woodburning and knitting during the yearly drill. Maybe they could also require them to change the current uniforms to hot pink ones so that the soldiers appear less threatening. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| Bulsajo wrote: |
| jinju wrote: |
| Its more of that little "man's" whining. |
Get used to it- it's a proven and emulated strategy of the NK regime, not just a "little man's whining" or a "whacko" spouting off.
Look at the evidence- North Korea has been able to pursue its money and influence accumulating ventures largely unhindered, such as counterfeiting currency, drug dealing, arms exporting, and furthermore it has been able to retain a seat at the negotiating table with the big powers such as China, Japan, and US.
These are not foreign policy successes which could be pulled off by a country at the mercy of a megalomaniacal whacko. |
The only reason thats been the case is because South Korea has had two jackass presidents in a row. DJ, who bought himself a Nobel peace prize for several hundred million dollars of what was basically a pay off to NK for the stupidly iditoic Inter Korean Summit..and now this communist appeasing president. Neither has had the guts to stand up to that pathetic fat clown up north, and their failed sunshine policy is nothing but bending over and taking it. I dont think NK has been successful on their own. Its more a case of SK being lead by two incompetent fools for a decade. |
Wow. Utterly and completely off. Well, more accurately... what you thin is the reason is almost completely insignificant. To wit: I was here in '93. KYS was elected *that year* but everything mentioned in this thread was already going on at, and before, that time.
It was openness and awareness that tore down the curtain in the end. Don't dismiss that so easily. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| jinju wrote: |
| Bulsajo wrote: |
| jinju wrote: |
| Its more of that little "man's" whining. |
Get used to it- it's a proven and emulated strategy of the NK regime, not just a "little man's whining" or a "whacko" spouting off.
Look at the evidence- North Korea has been able to pursue its money and influence accumulating ventures largely unhindered, such as counterfeiting currency, drug dealing, arms exporting, and furthermore it has been able to retain a seat at the negotiating table with the big powers such as China, Japan, and US.
These are not foreign policy successes which could be pulled off by a country at the mercy of a megalomaniacal whacko. |
The only reason thats been the case is because South Korea has had two jackass presidents in a row. DJ, who bought himself a Nobel peace prize for several hundred million dollars of what was basically a pay off to NK for the stupidly iditoic Inter Korean Summit..and now this communist appeasing president. Neither has had the guts to stand up to that pathetic fat clown up north, and their failed sunshine policy is nothing but bending over and taking it. I dont think NK has been successful on their own. Its more a case of SK being lead by two incompetent fools for a decade. |
Wow. Utterly and completely off. Well, more accurately... what you thin is the reason is almost completely insignificant. To wit: I was here in '93. KYS was elected *that year* but everything mentioned in this thread was already going on at, and before, that time.
It was openness and awareness that tore down the curtain in the end. Don't dismiss that so easily. |
What tore it down was people taking things into their own hands and forcing change while pressure was applied from outside. Thats what Budapest 56, Prague 68 were all about. THATS what Solidarity was about while the Vatican and Reagan turned on the pressure and in a way shielded Solidarity somewhat. Loving and understanding didnt bring down the Iron Curtain, it was sacrifice, risk and blood that did. Peace and loving only works in your hippie world. Not in the real world.
What needs to happen in the case of NK is for massive pressure to be put on NK. One thing I read recently is that the Patriot Act allows the US to deem NK a special counterfeiting problem (or something like that) and to essentially kick them out of the economic community. Anyone found dealing with NK (that includes SK and China) would themselves be hit hard by not being allowed to do business in the US. Choose: US or NK and who do you want to do business with? Hello? Samsung? LG? How is the refrigerator and handphone market up North? China? Ah, how will you continue growing your economy at 9% a year? Trading with the US or with NK? That would cripple NK, which I hope happens. Its time for real measure to be taken to topple NK. The current measures are already taking their toll. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| What tore it down was people taking things into their own hands and forcing change while pressure was applied from outside. Thats what Budapest 56, Prague 68 were all about. |
Now you're talking crazy talk.
Open a book a read about Dubček. Any similarities in Czechoslovakia in 68 to NK in 2006?
No.
There are no reformers in the regime rising up through the ranks and ready to institute reforms from the top down.
And compare Hungary in 56 to NK now:
the uprising in Hungary happened less than 10 years after a failed democracy, and like Czechoslovakia and Hungary was also not isolationist but was a part of the Warsaw pact and so had interaction with other East European Warsaw Pact states around it.
On the other hand, North Korea has been under a totalitarian, isolationist, Stalinist state for over 50 years.
You honestly think putting pressure on NK is going to create the preconditions for a popular uprising?!?
Did you somehow miss the famine of the past decade (which predates the Sunshine Policy)?
NK doesn't need to be crippled- it already is.
What you propose will lead to the starvation of millions.
Obviously you're okay with that, since the ends justify the means?
Are you a graduate of the Lyndon LaRouche School of Foreign Policy Studies or something?
You take great photos (and I sincerely mean that- you are an awesome photographer) but your understanding of international relations really blows. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| Quote: |
| What tore it down was people taking things into their own hands and forcing change while pressure was applied from outside. Thats what Budapest 56, Prague 68 were all about. |
Now you're talking crazy talk.
Open a book a read about Dubček. Any similarities in Czechoslovakia in 68 to NK in 2006?
No.
There are no reformers in the regime rising up through the ranks and ready to institute reforms from the top down.
And compare Hungary in 56 to NK now:
the uprising in Hungary happened less than 10 years after a failed democracy, and like Czechoslovakia and Hungary was also not isolationist but was a part of the Warsaw pact and so had interaction with other East European Warsaw Pact states around it.
On the other hand, North Korea has been under a totalitarian, isolationist, Stalinist state for over 50 years.
You honestly think putting pressure on NK is going to create the preconditions for a popular uprising?!?
Did you somehow miss the famine of the past decade (which predates the Sunshine Policy)?
NK doesn't need to be crippled- it already is.
What you propose will lead to the starvation of millions.
Obviously you're okay with that, since the ends justify the means?
Are you a graduate of the Lyndon LaRouche School of Foreign Policy Studies or something?
You take great photos (and I sincerely mean that- you are an awesome photographer) but your understanding of international relations really blows. |
I didnt compare them. Geez. I showed that the collapse of a system like communism has to be done through PROACTIVE means. And that often means confrontation. Budapest, Prague, Gdansk. Proactive confrontation was the key. Be it internal only or coupled with external support, there was confrontation. The Curtain didnt fall because the world joined the Soviet Union in a big ole hippie love in where love and understanding overflowed. The curtain fell because people inside the Bloc confronted their system and because there was a lot of prssure coming from the outside. I DO see similarities. There are reports coming in from NK itself of a movement against KJI, though it is small. Lets hope it grows. But just as Reagan accelerated the arms race and eventually drove the USSR to bankruptcy, while supporting Solidarity which eroded the system from within, I would hope Bush would do all he can to stomp the NK economy into the ground and finish them off. It CAN be done, and it should.
NK is crippled? The people are. The regime, is not. THAT needs to be changed. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| One thing I read recently is that the Patriot Act allows the US to deem NK a special counterfeiting problem (or something like that) and to essentially kick them out of the economic community. Anyone found dealing with NK (that includes SK and China) would themselves be hit hard by not being allowed to do business in the US. Choose: US or NK and who do you want to do business with? Hello? Samsung? LG? |
Sooooo....
If the Americans put the "NK or us" ultimatum to China, and the Chinese tell the Americans to go sodomize themselves with a chainsaw, you think the American president is gonna just hang up the phone and sign a bill outlawing all trade with China?
"My fellow Americans: I'm sorry about those of you who are gonna lose your jobs because of the suspension of trade with China, but you gotta understand that my priority right now is bringing democracy to North Korea. Thank you and God Bless America." |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by fiveeagles on Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| Quote: |
| What tore it down was people taking things into their own hands and forcing change while pressure was applied from outside. Thats what Budapest 56, Prague 68 were all about. |
Now you're talking crazy talk.
Open a book a read about Dubček. Any similarities in Czechoslovakia in 68 to NK in 2006?
No.
There are no reformers in the regime rising up through the ranks and ready to institute reforms from the top down.
And compare Hungary in 56 to NK now:
the uprising in Hungary happened less than 10 years after a failed democracy, and like Czechoslovakia and Hungary was also not isolationist but was a part of the Warsaw pact and so had interaction with other East European Warsaw Pact states around it.
On the other hand, North Korea has been under a totalitarian, isolationist, Stalinist state for over 50 years.
You honestly think putting pressure on NK is going to create the preconditions for a popular uprising?!?
Did you somehow miss the famine of the past decade (which predates the Sunshine Policy)?
NK doesn't need to be crippled- it already is.
What you propose will lead to the starvation of millions.
Obviously you're okay with that, since the ends justify the means?
Are you a graduate of the Lyndon LaRouche School of Foreign Policy Studies or something?
You take great photos (and I sincerely mean that- you are an awesome photographer) but your understanding of international relations really blows. |
uh oh. I think he got you there.... |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:28 am Post subject: |
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NK are within their rights. They are simply conducting missile tests within their own territory. they are indeed a sovereign state and planty of other nations conduct similar weapons testing. They aren't bound by any agreement.
However, 1 or 2 of their missiles landed on Russian territory! yet, Moscow still is against sanctions. I don't get it!
If a stray missile from any other nation entered russian airspace, the world would be on code red. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:39 am Post subject: |
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Bulsajo wrote:
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| Are you a graduate of the Lyndon LaRouche School of Foreign Policy Studies or something? |
What, you're saying my degree's no good? Christ, don't tell immigration.   |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| I'm pretty sure that there are members of the Urine party whose preferred scenario would be reunification with a nuclear NK and removal of all U.S. forces from Korea. Then they could threaten Japan with oblivion over Dokdo ( and be neutral to any Chinese aggression against Taiwan...) "Be the Reds" will take on its political meaning... |
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