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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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 Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:16 am Post subject: |
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You made some good points, many better than your usual arguments. I like them.
I must add this to your chaff list though.
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| he can claim, and get gullible folks like yourself to go along with him, that he *thought* there were WMDs when any fool knows he had no such delusions. |
You can't therefore call him an idiot in some posts and in others consider him a diabloical genius who was able to manipulate world opinion.
The US wasn't the only nation claiming weapons of mass destruction (the ability to kill massive numbers of people) in Iraq. Nuclear, chemical, biological, etc.
We do have to make points on what we know for ourselves personally, not what others tell us as you succiently pointed out. I agree with your arguments they were well argued.
I will hesitate to make any definite statements for another 100 yrs as the statute of secrets has been extended.
Though unless you are a recepient of national and international secrets, I am not willing to accept that you have all the facts either.
(This post has been edited, thus any responses prior editing are acknowledged) |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| my only contribution to this thread is: impressive. Lot of effort by some posters. Nice to see it has remained fairly civilized (knock on wood). |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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An interesting article about the Iraq war debate.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/040406.html
A 'Humbled' News Media?
By Robert Parry
April 4, 2006
Tucked inside an article about George W. Bush��s disastrous Iraq War and his continuing failure to catch Osama bin-Laden, Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen offered a limited criticism of himself and his media colleagues who have acted as pro-Bush cheerleaders for much of the past four-plus years.
��Those of us who once advocated this war [in Iraq] are humbled,�� Cohen wrote in a column on April 4. ��It��s not just that we grossly underestimated the enemy. We vastly overestimated the Bush administration.�� |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
An interesting article about the Iraq war debate.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/040406.html
A 'Humbled' News Media?
By Robert Parry
April 4, 2006
Tucked inside an article about George W. Bush��s disastrous Iraq War and his continuing failure to catch Osama bin-Laden, Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen offered a limited criticism of himself and his media colleagues who have acted as pro-Bush cheerleaders for much of the past four-plus years.
��Those of us who once advocated this war [in Iraq] are humbled,�� Cohen wrote in a column on April 4. ��It��s not just that we grossly underestimated the enemy. We vastly overestimated the Bush administration.�� |
Still missing a confession of shameless bias from the other side. If they finally recognized that, combined with the kind of selfcriticism this article suggests on the right, then maybe we might get some balanced coverage and analysis of the Iraqi affair for a change. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:27 am Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
| You can't therefore call him an idiot in some posts and in others consider him a diabloical genius who was able to manipulate world opinion. |
I don't really see the parts where people call him a diabolical genius. The bottom line is that 9/11 created an envelope where he was beyond criticism. Both the media and Congress appeared to be afraid of provoking a traumatized populace.
Bush got used to not being challenged and blew his political capital on the Iraq invasion.
A more adept president might have rolled much further with it.
To borrow from a fable (or whatever you want to call it), he became the bull who ran down the hill and got his cow when he probably could've walked down the hill and got whatever he wanted.
Also, issues of diabolical genius better apply to to his circle of advisors.
Cheney is not an idiot. Same goes for Rove and Wolfie. It's amazing that they were so down with the way the Iraq invasion happened. I suppose egos were soaring in that enclave.
The idiot in Bush comes out when he has to stand alone. The diabolical genius is something better attributed to the "White House".
So, I don't see these concepts as mutually exclusive. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
You made some good points, many better than your usual arguments. I like them.
I must add this to your chaff list though.
| Quote: |
| he can claim, and get gullible folks like yourself to go along with him, that he *thought* there were WMDs when any fool knows he had no such delusions. |
You can't therefore call him an idiot in some posts and in others consider him a diabloical genius who was able to manipulate world opinion.
The US wasn't the only nation claiming weapons of mass destruction (the ability to kill massive numbers of people) in Iraq. Nuclear, chemical, biological, etc.
We do have to make points on what we know for ourselves personally, not what others tell us as you succiently pointed out. I agree with your arguments they were well argued.
I will hesitate to make any definite statements for another 100 yrs as the statute of secrets has been extended.
Though unless you are a recepient of national and international secrets, I am not willing to accept that you have all the facts either.
(This post has been edited, thus any responses prior editing are acknowledged) |
Luckily for you, (but that is not a mean comment... ...and if you come to a conclusion where that is NOT a mean comment, you are probably in the neighborhood of what *I* believe the truth is), I did not see the original. My original point still stands: What we think we think is often nothing more than, and forgive me, "Dust in the Wind."
Again, I ask you to deal with this seemingly simple (it isn't, but it is) point: How the hell did *I* know there would be war in Iraq if Dumbya were elected many months *before* he was elected???
Deal with this and see where the chips fall.... |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
An interesting article about the Iraq war debate.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/040406.html
A 'Humbled' News Media?
By Robert Parry
April 4, 2006
Tucked inside an article about George W. Bush��s disastrous Iraq War and his continuing failure to catch Osama bin-Laden, Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen offered a limited criticism of himself and his media colleagues who have acted as pro-Bush cheerleaders for much of the past four-plus years.
��Those of us who once advocated this war [in Iraq] are humbled,�� Cohen wrote in a column on April 4. ��It��s not just that we grossly underestimated the enemy. We vastly overestimated the Bush administration.�� |
Tooting a horn of my own making: No sheet, Sherlock! |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
An interesting article about the Iraq war debate.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/040406.html
A 'Humbled' News Media?
By Robert Parry
April 4, 2006
Tucked inside an article about George W. Bush��s disastrous Iraq War and his continuing failure to catch Osama bin-Laden, Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen offered a limited criticism of himself and his media colleagues who have acted as pro-Bush cheerleaders for much of the past four-plus years.
��Those of us who once advocated this war [in Iraq] are humbled,�� Cohen wrote in a column on April 4. ��It��s not just that we grossly underestimated the enemy. We vastly overestimated the Bush administration.�� |
Still missing a confession of shameless bias from the other side. If they finally recognized that, combined with the kind of selfcriticism this article suggests on the right, then maybe we might get some balanced coverage and analysis of the Iraqi affair for a change. |
Jesus.... you need, seriously, to read "Pedagogy of the Oppressed."
Frightening...
If the *intelligent* among us are this deluded, is there any hope for the average guy???
On another tack (but not really, if you've a brain), how do we deal with the damage done by this administration when even the supposed "liberals" are apologists....
I have never been prouder to be an American. Screw Dumbya and his anti-American, anti-constitutional, anti-humanist,etc., cadre. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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