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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: Current U.S. Space Activities and Longterm Projects... |
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This is in response to this thread, which, unfortunately, was hijacked onto another topic.
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=54710
I suggest that in spite of bugdetary issues, NASA is busy as ever, and no other nation-state is as active as the U.S. in space exploration. We are still at our zenith, then...
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A new NASA mission to the moon will pelt the lunar surface in order to study plumes of dust -- and search for ice crystals. The unmanned mission, slated for October 2008, will launch a lunar orbiter from NASA's Kennedy Space Center, Fla., using the Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle.
The plan is to smash an object the weight of a sport utility vehicle into a crater on the moon, then fly a spacecraft through the resulting plume to search for evidence of ice. NASA said the mission is part of its plan to see if oxygen, hydrogen, or materials on the moon could be used to help support a trip to Mars. |
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5334811
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| NASA'S new budget earmarks money to keep the space shuttle flying, build its replacement, and finish the International Space Station. The space agency's science programs -- including projects that would search the galaxy for habitable planets and study the universe's dark energy -- face some big cuts. Ira Flatow leads a discussion on what's left for space science after the agency pays for its exploration programs. |
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5256808
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| NASA plans to launch the first spacecraft to Pluto Tuesday. The New Horizons probe will be launched on the fastest interplanetary rocket ever, but it is not expected to reach Pluto for nearly a decade. Pluto is the last of the nine familiar planets to be visited by a spacecraft. |
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5160099 |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| If we stopped invading random countries we'd have a lot more money to spend on this sort of thing. It's the kind of leadership I think we are good at and the world needs and appreciates. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:38 am Post subject: ... |
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| Agree. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:24 am Post subject: |
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Also agreed. NASA has a hard time getting people to understand that not only is $16 billion a year ridiculously low compared to other programs, but that each dollar spent on it gives eight dollars back in spinoffs to the country.
BTW, Europe's Venus Express arrived at Venus today after a super short journey. Dope. Europe's been doing very well recently in Solar System exploration. They have probes around four bodies now - the Moon, Mars, Venus, and somewhere else. Ah, that's right (just checked) - Saturn. That's a cooperative mission. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:00 am Post subject: |
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From space.com today:
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U.S.-China Cooperation: The Great Space Debate
By Leonard David
Senior Space Writer
posted: 12 April 2006
09:22 am ET
China is stepping up its space program, preparing to launch dozens upon dozens of Earth orbiting satellites over the next five to eight years. Also being readied are several space science missions, fielding a new heavy-lift booster, as well as strengthening its human spaceflight program to include an Earth-circling space lab and initiating a multi-step program of robotic lunar exploration.
Last week, Luo Ge, Vice Administrator of the China National Space Administration (CNSA), detailed his country��s space aims in back-to-back addresses, first at the Center for Strategic & International Studies (CSIS) in Washington, D.C. on April 3, followed by a presentation two days later at the National Space Symposium in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
In his talks, Luo spotlighted China-Russia intergovernmental cooperation, an inter-governmental agreement with France and the European Space Agency, work with Brazil on remote sensing satellites, and noted China��s role in the Convention on Asia-Pacific Space Cooperation Organization.
NASA Administrator, Michael Griffin, has confirmed that he has been invited to visit China, although no specific date has been set for the meeting.
How best to work with China is increasingly becoming part of a space policy debate in the United States. The posturing between nations is reminiscent of Cold War discussions with the former Soviet Union. Those talks led to an array of cooperative ventures, from weather data exchanges to the docking détente of Apollo-Soyuz in 1975, setting the stage for working together on the International Space Station project.
Defuse possible tensions
��China civil space plans are ambitious and inevitable,�� said Joseph Fuller, Jr., President and Chief Executive Officer of the Futron Corporation based in Bethesda, Maryland. ��It is not a question of if, but when. For the U.S. exploration vision to succeed on a grand scale, it must include China, India, Russia and other space faring nations,�� he said.
��Substantial collaboration already exists in business and economics,�� Fuller said, ��why not civil space?��
As China expands its automated and human spaceflight abilities, how best should the United States look upon this blossoming work—from a military/civilian perspective? Denying NASA and U.S. space commercial vendors the right to work with China is a political, not a security issue, said James Clay Moltz, Deputy Director, Center for Nonproliferation Studies and Professor of International Policy Studies at the Monterey Institute of International Studies in Monterey, California.
��Space station technologies are available from other suppliers and are unlikely to lead to any meaningful military advantages,�� Moltz explained. ��On the other hand, forcing China to develop its own space station with Russian or other partners simply sets up a possible competitor where there doesn��t need to be one.��
Moltz told SPACE.com that cooperating with China would defuse possible tensions, promote cost-savings for NASA, and level the playing field for U.S. companies. The United States should continue to hold China to account for human rights violations and other problems, but not hold space hostage. ��It��s simply not in U.S. interests,�� he said.
Elite club of countries
Given success in the human spaceflight arena, Luo of CNSA said that his country intends to orbit its own space lab by 2015. Leading up to this effort, he added, Chinese astronauts are to carry out space walks, with rendezvous and space docking skills also to be demonstrated in coming years.
China carried out its first human space voyage into Earth orbit in October 2003. That less-than-a-day flight catapulted China into an elite club of countries that has this independent space ability, following the former Soviet Union in 1961 and the United States in 1962. Last year, China sent a two-person crew into orbit on a five-day mission, substantially shaking out their Shenzhou spaceship.
During his U.S. travels—including a stopover at NASA��s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland—Luo said his country will send a first robotic probe to the Moon next year, make a soft-landing of a robotic rover on the Moon in 2012, and conduct an automated lunar sample return effort in 2017.
There was no direct mention by Luo of dispatching a crew to the Moon—or any timetable for such a feat—other than stating that he thought China will also consider the possibility of a manned mission to the Moon.
Lunar desires
��I happen to believe that their goal is to get to the Moon and that their schedule is probably more ambitious than ours is,�� said former Congressman Robert Walker and now chairman of Wexler & Walker Public Policy Associates in Washington, D.C.
Walker also chaired the Commission on the Future of the United States Aerospace Industry and was a member of the Presidential Commission on the Implementation of the United States Space Exploration Policy.
China��s lunar desires will be seen by some people as a very direct challenge, Walker said, ��but for the Chinese it will simply establish respect for their science and technology programs, which will then allow them, perhaps, to command a bigger price for a lot of their products in the world market.��
Walker told SPACE.com that China��s growing space prowess is ��a very strategic kind of concept for them,�� adding: ��If we are going to be competitive in a world environment we need to respect and do our job of anticipating and responding.��
More assurances needed
In terms of working with China on space matters, Walker said there is need for ��more assurances�� than the U.S. presently has about the Chinese willingness to respect technology, copyrights and patents.
��We have challenges with the Chinese at the present time because the rule of law sometimes means different things to them than it means to us,�� Walker added. ��We��re trying to work that out through World Trade Organization arrangements and hopefully some day we will.��
Walker said that U.S.-China space cooperation should be very carefully measured. There is need to assure that the United States, he said, doesn��t end up giving China technology that challenges, and possibly exceeds, American space expertise.
Leadership in space technology is a very important part of the United States being competitive in the 21st century, Walker said. ��We do not want to easily give up the technology that allows us to stay in the lead.��
Most Americans think that the United States is so far ahead in the space arena that no one will ever catch us, Walker concluded. ��In my view, that��s a mistake to believe that��because there are people with ambitions that rival our own.��
A capitalist, poverty-elimination machine
In January, China permitted several U.S. lawmakers to visit the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center, an expansive complex that dots the desolate desert of Gansu Province. In 1970, China��s first satellite rocketed into Earth orbit from this location. It is also home base for its budding human spaceflight program.
On that first-of-its kind trip, three U.S. Congressmen, Rep. Mark Kirk, R-Ill, Rep. Rick Larsen, D-Wash., and Rep. Tom Feeney, R-Florida made the fact-finding journey as members of the U.S. Congress�� China Working Group.
Purpose of the group, Feeney told SPACE.com, is to help disconnect a lot of thinking in the U.S. House of Representatives from dated Cold War perspectives. Specifically, that today��s China is equivalent of the Soviet Union 40 years ago-a perspective that is ��just not true,�� he said.
��In large parts of their country, the Chinese are a capitalist, poverty-elimination machine,�� Feeney observed. True, they have a long way to go on property rights and civil rights, and other issues, he said, but the China of today is ��a unique situation�� among nations around the globe.
The China Working Group wants to look at China as it is today, based on real facts, not—as some people are incorrectly thinking—based on a Cold War vision, Feeney said.
Dramatic rethinking
In visiting the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center, Feeney said he was struck by both the remoteness of the locale, as well as how modern their multi-floor rocket vehicle assembly facility was—taking on the appearance of a suburban office building.
Feeney reiterated what other U.S. analysts have expressed. ��In the United States, we��re training our American aerospace engineers how to maintain 20 to 40 year-old technology. The Chinese are literally developing new technology on their own.��
In terms of the United States linking-up with China��s space program in pursuing cooperative causes, Feeney advised: ��There is a dramatic rethinking in the space community and within NASA about the advantages of working with China.��
Legitimate concerns
Some ten to fifteen years ago, China brought no added value to the space cooperation table, Feeney said. But in very short order that has changed, with China making a commitment to space and now have proven capability that demonstrates their technological wherewithal.
��The most immediate thing we ought to agree to in my view is a joint docking device,�� Feeney pointed out. Having the ability to dock NASA��s Crew Exploration Vehicle (CEV) to a future Chinese space station should be considered. So too is having a Shenzhou spacecraft capable of attaching to a stranded CEV if need be, he added.
But putting such ideas aside, Feeney said there remains a ��big caveat in all of this.�� There are ��very legitimate concerns�� raised by the U.S. military, he said, about the ultimate intention of the Chinese.
With newly announced defense budget increases in China, the defense community finds it difficult to talk about sharing technology or capabilities between the two nations, Feeney explained. Furthermore, China��s building of a new launch facility to handle heavy-lift rocket operations is worrisome to U.S. space defense officials.
Take home messages
While the heavy-lift Long March booster is key for building a space station, to hone near-Earth and lunar exploration operations, Feeney said the launcher��s throw weight can seed space with killer satellites that could ��incapacitate America��s space communications and space predominance.��
��So as we talk about cooperation, we have to think about the really big issues,�� Feeney noted. ��It��s one thing to talk about human spaceflight �� rescue of astronauts �� other types of technology generates this concern.��
Asked what his take home messages were after viewing, in person, China��s space program, Feeney said: ��The Chinese have a long way to go to catch us in space capabilities. But they are very focused �� they have had huge success �� and they are very dedicated to being a space leader.�� |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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My intent in creating this thread had nothing to do with whether W. Bush's oppenents approved of the Iraqi conflict and its related military expenditures. Not everything is about W. Bush. Not everything is about Iraq or military spending.
The fact is, even with all of the defense spending the U.S. is undertaking, the U.S. space program is decades ahead of any other space program on Earth, and will remain so for some time.
The U.S. should certainly collaborate with other contributors, but does anyone here seriously believe that the U.S. will be surpassed by another nation in space technology and exploration? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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*Glances at Axis of Evil list and Rice's Outpost of Tyranny Lists*
Erm, Belarus, Burma, Cuba...
Hrmmm, China isn't there. I suppose collaborating with them is allowed. |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
The fact is, even with all of the defense spending the U.S. is undertaking, the U.S. space program is decades ahead of any other space program on Earth, and will remain so for some time.
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But perhaps, in the end, the issue will be related quite heavily with defense spending. Everyone knows that the major conduit for R&D budgets is through the US Armed Forces....
United States Space Force: sooner rather than later
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| It��s time to admit that the 2001 decision—in keeping with the recommendations of the second Rumsfeld commission—that made the Air Force the ��Executive Agent for Space�� has just not worked: not due to any malfeasance or corruption or lack of good will, but simply because the USAF has other priorities. |
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A new space service, with its own promotion ladder and its own training and doctrine development system, will insure that when the Joint Chiefs and their civilian superiors meet to plan an operation, someone with four stars will be there to make sure that the capabilities and limitations of US and enemy space forces are taken into account. Military space expertise is becoming more widespread than ever and even the least sophisticated future foe will know enough to try and avoid being detected or targeted by US or allied satellites.
With its own budget, the space service will be able to concentrate on making sure that all the other services have access to the best space-based support possible. The Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard, and others who use America��s military space assets will not have to worry about institutional favoritism, although it should be pointed out that, since 2001, there has not been any evidence that the USAF has abused its authority to the detriment of the other services. Instead, the problem is that, within the Air Force, there has not been enough top-level attention paid to the needs of space operations. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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I think that is right, and it is already closely intertwined with defense spending, particularly in communications, signals intelligence, and overhead reconnaissance.
On the other hand, this is not an either/or proposition. The U.S. is an extremely powerful nation-state.
Even though there are vast defense expenditures, Washington has also sponsored a pretty impressive Mars exploration project since at least 1997, and also recently committed to and launced a longterm probe to Pluto.
China is talking about collaborating with the U.S. and putting satellites in orbit, as well as generally increasing its involvement in space. And I think that is great, and I hope the U.S., the European Space Agency, Russia, China, and others will continue to build collaborative relationships in this field and also in others.
But to suggest that the U.S. is in danger of falling out of the leadership slot is, in my opinion, not in touch with reality.
The U.S. is at its zenith, and decline is simply not in evidence. |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
But to suggest that the U.S. is in danger of falling out of the leadership slot is, in my opinion, not in touch with reality.
The U.S. is at its zenith, and decline is simply not in evidence. |
U.S. Losing Unofficial Space Race, Congressmen Say
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Some congressmen believe the United States and China are in an unacknowledged space race that this country could lose if it doesn't spend more money on the civilian space program.
The communist nation's military runs its manned space program, employs an estimated 200,000 workers and has set a goal of putting an astronaut on the moon by 2017.
By contrast, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration is a civilian government program with a limited budget that directly employs fewer than 20,000 civil servants and has lost the commanding lead it once held over the rest of the world in human space exploration. |
China, competition, and cooperation
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The belief—that the US and China are engaged in a space race, presumably to send people to the Moon, or back to the Moon in America��s case—was shared by several other committee members at the hearing. ��If China beats us there, we will have lost the space program,�� Rep. Frank Wolf (R-VA), the subcommittee chairman, said, according to Space News. ��They are basically, fundamentally in competition with us.��
Much of those statements seemed to be rooted in unsourced claims that China planned to send astronauts to the Moon by 2017, one year earlier than NASA��s current plans. Even Griffin seemed to acknowledge that claim, according to Space News. ��They have announced that they intend to be on the Moon by 2017. People can choose to believe it or not,�� he said. ��The basic design of the Chinese Shenzhou, following as it does the Russian Soyuz, is capable of returning people safely from the Moon.�� |
It could get interesting... |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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I agree.
Many in Western Civ have been refocusing on China and its place in world affairs since at least as early as the mid-1990s.
I strongly recommend checking out Andre Gunder Frank's Reorient: Global Economy in the Asian Age (Berkely: Univ. of California Press, 1998). He basically turns over everything Marx and Weber postulated about the rise of the west and imperialism in a single volume.
China's place is clearly more central in world affairs than has been thus far acknowledged in the West, and its position will probably only increase in importance as time goes by.
Still, the Congressman you cite here is probably politicking for one thing or another, and should not necessarily be taken at face value. The U.S. already won the "race" to the Moon, to Mars, throughout the solar system via the Voyager program, and will soon (relatively soon) generate the most detailed knowledge the world has ever known with respect to Pluto -- and perhaps beyond.
And no matter how I do the math, I just cannot see China suddenly surpassing the U.S. in these kinds of space projects anytime soon, if ever.
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:35 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| With its own budget, the space service will be able to concentrate on making sure that all the other services have access to the best space-based support possible. The Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard, and others who use America��s military space assets will not have to worry about institutional favoritism, although it should be pointed out that, since 2001, there has not been any evidence that the USAF has abused its authority to the detriment of the other services. Instead, the problem is that, within the Air Force, there has not been enough top-level attention paid to the needs of space operations. |
Whoa! That means the dudes with slide-rulers are now military? (Heh, when did they stop using the slide-rulers, anyway?)
Actually, I really like this idea. This means the Space Program will get the attention of lobbyists, and they'll have plenty of money.
And I largely agree with Goph about China being over-hyped. I mean, has anyone been there recently? Blossoming regional power? Sure, looks like it. Next space superpower? Ermmmmmmm.... |
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