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Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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Homer
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 Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: |
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It is arrogant. Did you not catch the part about the year of the pig? That was the worst, as if all the people here are cavemen because they count ages different. He may have been saying it out of frustration which is somewhat understandable, but it was still arrogant. Plus, you do realize kids learn language best between the ages of 2 (or 3) to 6 (or 7) our ages? It's most definitely not a waste of money.
As for the being thrust into such an environment. That is what a brain is for. I am sorry, I have no pity for something that could have been checked quite easily. While I am sure the company withholds that info on purpose to be sketchy, but it's still up to him.
This is pretty much on target.
The post made by the OP was a bot on the ignorant/condescending side... |
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Lizara
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| I think you guys are being a bit harsh. It doesn't seem that unreasonable for someone who was told they'd be teaching six-year-olds to think they would, in fact, be teaching six-year-olds, assuming they had no previous knowledge of how Koreans count age. And there's a lot more to it than having a brain; I need to use a very different teaching style with our "five year old" class than with our "seven year old" classes. Some teachers are very good at that, and some struggle even if they really do care and really are trying to teach well. |
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Homer
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Lizara,
The response was not about the age fo the students but about the reaction of the OP towards the fact that these students go to school....read the whole thread to see what I mean.  |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Snowkr wrote: |
Thanks to all who contributed thoughts to this post!
Does anyone else out there think it's ridiculous to put 3 and 4 year olds in an English Immersion program and call them 6 year olds because they were born in the year of the pig (or whatever)?
They're babies. They belong at home with their parents! |
That has got to be the MOST ARROGANT crap I have heard so far on Dave's.   |
It is. Another arrogant newbie bites the dust in Korea. I guess it mist be hard living in a totally different culture when one brings his western arrogance over here with them. |
Excuse me, are you two trying to make fun of apologists? I couldn't have done better myself.
Could you give me some tips? |
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Snowkr
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: should have known better |
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In my own defense, my post was in no way intended to come across arrogant, condescending, disrespectful, flippant, brash... etc... you get the picture.
I worked in China last year where they observe the lunar calendar in the same way and I really should have known to expect this in Korea. I did ask my boss prior to accepting the job and was told "6 years old and up"
I love my kids, my school, my city and my job. I am not a "newbie" nor have I come close to "biting the dust". I've worked with children from 18 months to 15 years old in 4 different countries and I've never seen children pushed the way they are here...
To answer those who would accuse me of not researching the culture and coming in ignorant...
I did.
I didn't.
I never signed on for this.
Tomato, I also taught the suzuki music methods in Australia and I completely agree with you. I think this type of interaction would make a world of difference in hogwons here. |
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Homer
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Barking..barking..barking...
Why do you trot out that tired ole "oh look apologists" snap shot on such a frequent basis?
Who is being an apologist in this thread?
Now that the OP has explained his or her position it makes more sense. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| It is. Another arrogant newbie bites the dust in Korea. I guess it mist be hard living in a totally different culture when one brings his western arrogance over here with them. |
Hi, my name is Jinju. I like to blast people on the internet to prove how non-arrogant I am. What a hypocrite!
If you and laogaiguk think you're about done patting each other on the ass, I'll take a quick peek into another one of Jinju's insightful observations:
| jinju wrote: |
| Well, its not ridiculous. It is their country, isnt it? |
Thanks for the non-sequitur lesson, Jinju! I guess the moral of your post is that any action is outside the bounds of criticism by people who aren't from the country where said action takes place. Right? So.. female circumcision. Don't say anything! Public executions? Hey, that's okay! It's their culture! Right?
I guess Snowkr isn't allowed to have an opinion because she's an outsider, huh?
How about this comment?
| jinju wrote: |
| Perhaps getting more acquanited with a culture before coming over would have helped. |
Right!! Because, before you move to a country, you should already be well-acquainted with every single minute detail of the culture before agreeing to take a job! How DARE you read a contract throught your evil, WESTERN eyes?!?!  Don't you know you should do an incredibly detailed cultural investigation on every word in the contract before signing on, lest your clairvoyance fail you?
If only we could all be as culturally sensitive as Jinju, the author of this wonderfullly empathetic post. He's so hip to Korean culture! I bet he sheds a tear every time a drunk ajeoshi praises him for being able to say his age in Korean. Let's give a golf clap.
Some of you freaks are so eager to jump down someone's throat that you'll make assumptions and even produce completely illogical rationale just to excuse your need to pump up your ego at the cost of someone else's. It's the type of behaviour others of us at Dave's try to sweep under the rug. Thank goodness everyone here isn't an asshole like that.
As for the OP... I can sympathize. I will never teach kids younger than 3rd grade. I've done it and hated it. I like kids, but I don't really like babies and toddlers, or anything resembling. However, a classroom full of bored, tired, overly self-conscious middle schoolers who stare at you like you're invisible every time you ask a question isn't necessarily a dream boat, either. For me, I think, E4 - M1 is about perfect.
Q. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
Lizara,
The response was not about the age fo the students but about the reaction of the OP towards the fact that these students go to school....read the whole thread to see what I mean. |
Well... technically, it's not a school, it's an academy. You and I both know that Koreans make a big distinction between the two. It may seem an insignificant point to make, but your wording lends itself to ridicule based on the word "school". The OP is talking about extra education for kids whom, from an American, and perhaps other western country's, perspective, are thereby robbed of their childhood. Not that they shouldn't learn. Just that we have different ideas of how much is enough. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: should have known better |
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| Snowkr wrote: |
In my own defense, my post was in no way intended to come across arrogant, condescending, disrespectful, flippant, brash... etc... you get the picture.
I worked in China last year where they observe the lunar calendar in the same way and I really should have known to expect this in Korea. I did ask my boss prior to accepting the job and was told "6 years old and up"
I love my kids, my school, my city and my job. I am not a "newbie" nor have I come close to "biting the dust". I've worked with children from 18 months to 15 years old in 4 different countries and I've never seen children pushed the way they are here...
To answer those who would accuse me of not researching the culture and coming in ignorant...
I did.
I didn't.
I never signed on for this.
Tomato, I also taught the suzuki music methods in Australia and I completely agree with you. I think this type of interaction would make a world of difference in hogwons here. |
Well, I aplolgize then.  Still, I don't feel too bad  It did seem arrogant. |
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Snowkr
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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How very humble of you, laogaiguk.
Forgive me but based on your previous responses to my post, isn't that a bit like the pot calling the kettle black?
To be perfectly clear on this whole "issue" of mine, I do not think that these little children can not be taught. These are important developmental years, but as someone who is a bit well studied in early childhood development, I really have a hard time seeing them pushed so hard. They are intimidated by these foreigners who come in a punish them for speaking their native language in their own country. This is how it works at my hogwon. I think it's a wonderful program for older children but not appropriate for the little ones. When I discuss this with my boss or with a parent I get the same response... "but they are 6 years old"! |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Snowkr wrote: |
How very humble of you, laogaiguk.
Forgive me but based on your previous responses to my post, isn't that a bit like the pot calling the kettle black?
To be perfectly clear on this whole "issue" of mine, I do not think that these little children can not be taught. These are important developmental years, but as someone who is a bit well studied in early childhood development, I really have a hard time seeing them pushed so hard. They are intimidated by these foreigners who come in a punish them for speaking their native language in their own country. This is how it works at my hogwon. I think it's a wonderful program for older children but not appropriate for the little ones. When I discuss this with my boss or with a parent I get the same response... "but they are 6 years old"! |
Early ages are the best to introduce foriegners to the children, before any racial prejudices set in. They will grow up thinking it is normal to see a foreigner everyday.
Same for English. Teaching them English at an early age first of all teaches them during their best learning ages and accustomes them to English, so it doesn't seem quite as foreign later on (around 6 and 8). You don't see many mixed race couples teaching their kid one language and then start teaching the other around 6 for obvious reasons.
They shouldn't be pushed, but there is no problem if it is kept to a minimum.
Last edited by laogaiguk on Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyways, I can't feel too bad for the OP. If he lived in China, he knew that ages are calculated differently and had no reason not to check that Korea was the same. He is stuck teaching kids he should have known the age of. After a year you can change. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
Barking..barking..barking...
Why do you trot out that tired ole "oh look apologists" snap shot on such a frequent basis? |
And why do you give aggressors a pat on the back on such a frequent basis? You sound like a so-called "pacifist" who greatly admires the regimes of North Korea and Iran to the point of wanting to live there and wear their uniforms because they're, like, at least not the big bad Western capitalist machine, duuuuude.
(Please note: the last sentence was only an exaggerated analogy regarding your enthusiastic support for newbie-bashers.)
| Quote: |
| Who is being an apologist in this thread? |
I actually agree with what you're implying here. "Apologist" has quite a few positive connotations - it implies the defence of something, as well as having a positive attitude. With that in mind, 80% of my usage of "apologist" has probably been unfair and innaccurate. My mistake has been in defining apologists by who/what they attack, not by what they defend. Therefore, by labelling aggressors such as Jinju and Lao as "apologists", I am insulting all those who both appreciate Korea and are motivated by more positive and constructive philosophies. For that I sincerely apologise. No-one with a gram of positivity and empathy deserves to be lumped in with newbie-bashers.
Last edited by Barking Mad Lord Snapcase on Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
Teaching them English at an early age first of all teaches them during their best learning ages and accustomes them to English, so it doesn't seem quite as foreign later on (around 6 and  . |
While a popular idea, many educational studies have concluded that students who are heavily exposed to learning a second language at an early age are generally handicapped in learning their mother tongue with little, if any, benefit over starting at a later age. This is a primary reason why few government schools back in the west offer intensive language study programs at early ages, and those that do often require a parental requirement (in my hometown, for example, French immersion starting in grade 1 was only available to families with parents of French herritage. Everyone else had to wait until grade 4.) |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| cool, you quoted yourself. Am I an aggressor now? |
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