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Porter_Goss
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Location: The Wrong Side of Right
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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 Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Was Korea an unjustifiable war? What is the difference between Vietnam and Korea. |
Korea was awar created by the US and Russia. There were multiple governments in exile and the US and USSR each had their favorites. Overall, the US did more to leave things in the hands of the Koreans, but the ONLY reason the peninsula was divided was because the US told the Russians to stop at or near the 38th parallel or risk confrontation. The US brought in its military and its "favorite" gov't in exile and the two sides entrenched. Nothing much has changed since. Justifable? No.
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| And don't gloat too much about Vietnam. After all it seems that the US ended up better than the communists after the cold war. Explain that. |
The US? Was Viet Nam about the US? Shouldn't it have been about the Viet Namese? What did we gain? Nothing. The Communists won in Vietnam. The US didn't win, the better system won out. A generally more free society will win out over one where freedom lacks over time... depending on where in time and history you take your poll.
Ex. Rome circa 1 AD, pretty much a sucess! Hey! Let's all do that! Rome circa 400 AD, pretty much a mess. Bring on the Dark Ages!!
Get it, Joo? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="mindmetoo"]
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
The US won World War II and the US came out of the cold war a lot better than the enemy did. The US won those wars and the US will win this war. You can take it to the bank. |
Like it won Vietnam and that did cracker jacks for the US economy?
The US came out of the cold war out better than the other side Not that you are too happy- about it even though you live off the efforts of the US (whom you hate ) in Korea.
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: I Don't Like Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee |
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Hey Porter I read your sites , now please look at this
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A controversy brewing in Saudi Arabia is instructive. Several weeks ago, when the U.S. was gearing up for the assault on Fallujah, Salman al-Awdah, a popular preacher who had close ties to al Qaeda in the '90s, signed, along with 25 colleagues, a declaration that made fighting the U.S. in Iraq an obligation for able-bodied Muslims. This sly document left it an open question as to whether Iraqis and Saudis were equally obliged to fight. The authors of the declaration wanted to have it both ways--to garner the benefits of association with al Qaeda abroad without suffering any consequences at home.
But many Saudis have grown tired of this game, and are working to expose clerics for playing fast and loose with peoples' lives. The reformist newspaper al-Watan revealed that Mr. al-Awdah subsequently enlisted the aid of the Saudi security services in order to prevent his son Muadh from joining the jihad in Iraq. Muadh, it seems, had decided with some friends to go and fight America. "God permitting," he said in a message to his family, "we have an appointment with paradise." In an effort to prevent him from keeping this date, Mr. al-Awdah contacted Prince Muhammad bin Nayef, No. 2 at the Saudi ministry of Interior. The authorities quickly found the young men, and returned them safely to their families.
Mr. Al-Awdah's frantic call for help revealed two levels of hypocrisy. First, it shattered his carefully crafted image as a courageous fighter for Islam, a man who speaks truth to power. For someone supposedly independent of the regime, he has cozy ties with the Saudi secret police. Second, it unmasked his true feeling about the anti-American jihad: Let Iraqis kill themselves.
Mr. al-Awdah is today less concerned about fueling the jihad than he is about saving his reputation. He is quibbling over the details of al-Watan's report, claiming defamation and threatening a lawsuit. Al-Watan has responded by saying, in effect: Bring it on. If he dares to do so, Mr. al-Awdah may well find himself with more legal burdens than he cares to shoulder. The father of a Saudi boy who did in fact find his death in Iraq has gone to the media expressing his intention to sue Mr. al-Awdah and the other 25 clerics who issued the fatwa supporting the jihad. And to make matters worse, the government of Kuwait--a predominantly Sunni country--has banned the offending clerics from its soil.
Whatever Saudis may think of U.S. policies, they first and foremost disagree among themselves about the character of their society. In fact, the Saudis use the debate about America as a proxy for their own conflicts, which at base have little if anything to do with the Bush foreign policy. When Mr. al-Awdah called for jihad against the U.S. in Iraq, he was striking a blow against secular reformers--"Americanizers"--in Saudi Arabia. His enemies, for their part, are using the pages of al-Watan to launch a counterattack to advance their domestic agenda. |
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006014&ojrss=frontpage
Mideast regimes can take down Al Qaeda or the others if they are forced to.
The governments over there pay the clerics, they control the media and they know who gets funded .
If their survival depends on it then they will take them down. If they don't the US ought to engage in targeted assassinations and keep hitting them until they do. The US ought to keep hitting harder with bigger weapons until they get the message over there.
The US doesn't have a right to force the mideast to accept capitalism, the if they in the mideast don't want to sell oil to the US well- then that is their business, but regimes and elites , clerics and the media in the mideast don't have a right anymore to teach hate incite violence, fund Al Qaeda, or support terror.
In todays world those are acts of war. and they don't have a right to their war. And to force them to quit then the US ought to hit them with anything and everything .
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:33 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Korea was awar created by the US and Russia. There were multiple governments in exile and the US and USSR each had their favorites. Overall, the US did more to leave things in the hands of the Koreans, but the ONLY reason the peninsula was divided was because the US told the Russians to stop at or near the 38th parallel or risk confrontation. The US brought in its military and its "favorite" gov't in exile and the two sides entrenched. Nothing much has changed since. Justifable? No. |
Well then Korea would be ruled by North Korea. and you would be out of a job
Did the better system win out in Korea?
In North Korea those who run away are killed. and hundereds of thousands have starved to death.
Did the better system win out in Korea?
was that war good for the US probably not , but was it morally wrong to go stop N Korea?
You tell us why it wasn't.
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| The US? Was Viet Nam about the US? Shouldn't it have been about the Viet Namese? What did we gain? Nothing. The Communists won in Vietnam. The US didn't win, the better system won out. A generally more free society will win out over one where freedom lacks over time... depending on where in time and history you take your poll. |
The US came out better than the others during the cold war.
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Ex. Rome circa 1 AD, pretty much a sucess! Hey! Let's all do that! Rome circa 400 AD, pretty much a mess. Bring on the Dark Ages!!
Get it, Joo? |
Was the cold war perfect nope , but the US was right to fight it. The Soviet Union was out to get the US |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee"]
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
The US won World War II and the US came out of the cold war a lot better than the enemy did. The US won those wars and the US will win this war. You can take it to the bank. |
Like it won Vietnam and that did cracker jacks for the US economy?
The US came out of the cold war out better than the other side Not that you are too happy- about it even though you live off the efforts of the US (whom you hate ) in Korea. |
The cold war, sure. But 'nam, of which Iraq is a lot like, had a deleterious effect on the US economy. Inflation being a major one.
You'll also remember the western nations were behind the US on the cold war. We're not all exactly excited about how the USA is running the war on terrorism.
Anyway, so if you're such a big believer in Iraq being a just cause, why aren't you putting yourself on the actual line? You keep avoiding that question. It's a bit like someone who doesn't recycle telling us how great recycling is. Simply, Iraq, the American army, and freedom need you a lot more that Koreans need you to teach them English, no? There are more than enough Canadians who hate America and the freedoms you (ha, you... I mean your braver, more patriotic country men and women) defend to teach them English. Why are you shirking your nation's call to duty? You sound a bit like Stallone and Clinton who sat out 'nam in Europe. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| The cold war, sure. But 'nam, of which Iraq is a lot like, had a deleterious effect on the US economy. Inflation being a major one. |
Well you want to pick and choose which battles the fight in the cold war well looking back it is easy.
Why not Korea.
but the US was right to fight the cold war .
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| You'll also remember the western nations were behind the US on the cold war. We're not all exactly excited about how the USA is running the war on terrorism. |
Well , they were right next to the Soviets, while many of them don't exactly like the fact that the US ended up a lot bettter than most of the west at the end of the cold war. Besides a lot of western nations have direct economic relations with the mideast nations
By they way Reagan wasn't popular in Europe they wanted him to go softer. The west wasn't always behind the US during the cold war.
| Quote: |
| Anyway, so if you're such a big believer in Iraq being a just cause, why aren't you putting yourself on the actual line? You keep avoiding that question. It's a bit like someone who doesn't recycle telling us how great recycling is. Simply, Iraq, the American army, and freedom need you a lot more that Koreans need you to teach them English, no? There are more than enough Canadians who hate America and the freedoms you (ha, you... I mean your braver, more patriotic country men and women) defend to teach them English. Why are you shirking your nation's call to duty? You sound a bit like Stallone and Clinton who sat out 'nam in Europe. |
[/quote]
You don't know about my past and I don't need to tell you all about it. But I will tell you that I failed a miltary physical - at the time of the drawdown in the 1990s. At the time it was something I really wanted to do- I never avoided anything.
Anyway you hate the US you enjoy seeing success by the insurgents yet you live off the US who you never miss a chance to denounce. That tells a little about you. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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The greatest thing the US ever did for Korea was end the Japanese occupation, for which we should all be very thankful. In spite of the fire-bombings and A-bombs I'll still salute US Second World War vets anytime. After a horrendous war, half of its own creation, the US did help keep communism out, but just about everything else SK has accomplished has been done by Koreans taking the initiative.
As for saying the US came out better off than Vietnam - that's a bit like saying 'I ran over a cyclist in my car and only lost a headlamp and had a cracked window and couldn't drive very well for a while - but woohoo look at how a buggered him up!'.
I don't feel as depressed about Iraq anymore. It's horrible, but it was just as horrible in other ways before and it's mired down the PNAC completely. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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The US was better off after the cold war. Not everything went ok but the US came out okay. It is easy to look back and play Monday morning QB.
The Korean war was 1/2 the fault of the US? How so? I guess the US could have stayed out and let North Korea take over.
Up to 1975 Korea received US aid.
The US spends like 10 billion dollars a year paying for US forces in Korea.
How much did the US spend on Korea's defense over 55 years?
The US also saved the life of Kim Dae Jung.
YBS I don't know what the US ought to do in Iran
But the US Navy and Air Force are in better shape than they have been in a long time.
Of course you would support the Mullahs of Iran against the US. You like Robert Fisk . Does he ever write anything critical of Iran or Hezzbollah?
He lives in Lebanon perhaps under the protection of Hezzbollah. He is their guy? |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
[quote="Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee"]
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Korea was awar created by the US and Russia. There were multiple governments in exile and the US and USSR each had their favorites. Overall, the US did more to leave things in the hands of the Koreans, but the ONLY reason the peninsula was divided was because the US told the Russians to stop at or near the 38th parallel or risk confrontation. The US brought in its military and its "favorite" gov't in exile and the two sides entrenched. Nothing much has changed since. Justifable? No. |
Well then Korea would be ruled by North Korea. and you would be out of a job
Did the better system win out in Korea? |
You asked if it was justifiable, I said no. I did not address any other issue. And you are forgetting one thing: the US did not start the war, so you've got no point to be making. The US and Russia are solely responsible for creating the conditions that divided the peninsula, thus are responsible within that context, but the US did not start it, so I do not blame the US for the war directly. However, one does not start a small burn off and then claim they had nothing to do with it when it gets out of control and becomes a forest fire.
The intentions of the US were selfish. They had nothing to do with the Koreans, or are you forgetting the US giving approval to Japan's colonization in the first place? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="EFLtrainer"]
| Quote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Quote: |
Korea was awar created by the US and Russia. There were multiple governments in exile and the US and USSR each had their favorites. Overall, the US did more to leave things in the hands of the Koreans, but the ONLY reason the peninsula was divided was because the US told the Russians to stop at or near the 38th parallel or risk confrontation. The US brought in its military and its "favorite" gov't in exile and the two sides entrenched. Nothing much has changed since. Justifable? No. |
Well then Korea would be ruled by North Korea. and you would be out of a job
Did the better system win out in Korea? |
You asked if it was justifiable, I said no. I did not address any other issue. And you are forgetting one thing: the US did not start the war, so you've got no point to be making. The US and Russia are solely responsible for creating the conditions that divided the peninsula, thus are responsible within that context, but the US did not start it, so I do not blame the US for the war directly. However, one does not start a small burn off and then claim they had nothing to do with it when it gets out of control and becomes a forest fire.
The intentions of the US were selfish. They had nothing to do with the Koreans, or are you forgetting the US giving approval to Japan's colonization in the first place? |
and I did not know that the US gave approval to Japan but what does that have to do with anything?
I mean in Korea it was either a divided country or rule by Kim Ill Sung. Was there another choice?
If the US is responsible for dividing Korea then it was only cause the only alternative was rule by Kim Il Sung. |
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Porter_Goss
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Location: The Wrong Side of Right
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:43 am Post subject: |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee,
If you like Michael Doran check this out;
Council on Foreign Relations.
This article seemingly helps to promote your hypothesis, but I would like you to be thinking of the factors that lead to the formation of terrorist groups while reading it.
Also, my original comments were directed at your belief that the war on terror would be easily won. Not your words, but that is what I surmised from your post. Would you like to respond to that?
*EDIT* Formatting error. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
You don't know about my past and I don't need to tell you all about it. But I will tell you that I failed a military physical - at the time of the drawdown in the 1990s. At the time it was something I really wanted to do- I never avoided anything. |
Well that answers that finally.
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Anyway you hate the US you enjoy seeing success by the insurgents yet you live off the US who you never miss a chance to denounce. That tells a little about you. |
I hate the USA. Really? Because I don't agree with this administration's policies? Wow! It's probably good no one let you have a gun... |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:58 am Post subject: |
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I hate the USA. Really? Because I don't agree with this administration's policies? Wow! It's probably good no one let you have a gun...[/quote]
I saw your posts it sorry but certainly does seem that way.
By the way you like to criticize the US Ok lets hear your alternatives. The other side never gave up its war why ought the US just give in. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
By the way you like to criticize the US Ok lets hear your alternatives. The other side never gave up its war why ought the US just give in. |
Well, besides the obvious as in fight the real war on terrorism, not some foolish attack on Iraq?
- Don't disband the Iraqi army, especially after you made back channel promises to the Iraqi brass that if they didn't fight they would be taken care of. A million troops with weapons and training and no more salary are going to be looking for a way to put food on the table.
- Realize every time you bomb a terrorist hold out and you accidentally kill 10 children, you make 200 allies into enemies.
- Realize American troops are not peace keepers or cops. Everyone hates America by default. But since Bush totally alienated most nations that traditionally send peace keepers, he pretty much screwed that option.
- Accept most Iraqis are like most Americans. They don't want people who are practically space aliens telling them how to run their nation. What would America do if they needed French troops to kick out a dictator? Americans would say "thanks, France, but leave now.... we'll do the rest." If France decided it was going to re-write America's constitution in its own image, you think Americans would sit idly by? They'd soon be cutting heads off of European contractors people.
- Treat all prisoners under the rules of the Geneva convention. Yeah, even if they're vile killers, you're America. You're supposed to play by the rules. If you're not, then no one else will.
- Accept you've got 180 different religious factions, all armed to the teeth, and all happy to kill each other.
- Bush needs to stop reminding the American public he got rid of Saddam Hussein. Great. That was three years ago. Does the average American even care who won the super bowl from three years ago? Why does Bush keep thinking Americans will go "oh yeah, well, at least we did that." |
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