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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| SirFink wrote: |
| Xian wrote: |
| Many God's didn't create the universe, one God did. Many God's didn't create humanity, one God did. |
Genesis 1:26 ��Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image..."  |
Thats the Trinity speaking. Not separate gods. |
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out of context
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| With God and the Bible, many just want to believe the parts that are comfortable to themselves and doesn't compromise their comfort in life in some form. |
With logic and reason, many just want to believe the parts that are comfortable to themselves and don't compromise their comfort in a belief system in some form.
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| Some people are always going to reject the Bible, regardless of how good the evidence. |
I wouldn't be worried about such people. There are more options than either taking the Bible at face value or willfully rejecting it. Blind faith and blind rejection are equally unscientific. |
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Don Gately
Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Location: In a basement taking a severe beating
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Xian wrote: |
With God and the Bible, many just want to believe the parts that are comfortable to themselves and doesn't compromise their comfort in life in some form.
Some people are always going to reject the Bible, regardless of how good the evidence. In Jesus' day thousands saw His miracles and heard His teachings, yet even by the time of the resurrection, there were only a small number of people with Him. Where were the people who were healed and those thousands of people who were fed?
As confirmed by Rapier, this is currently a discussion about real proofs toward supporting the internal aspects of the Bible, something that other religions / cults cannot provide in apologetical discussions.
It wasn't the idea of Christians to make only one way to God. It is exclusive, yes, but that is God's way (I am glad for that and all Christians should be because they should have an understanding of the results of following another way). People may take what ever path they want, but I am fascinated by the fact that people can believe and follow such different paths / gods, yet still think that they are equally correct. Many God's didn't create the universe, one God did. Many God's didn't create humanity, one God did.
I can see why it seems arrogant to say that Christianity is the only way. Take that one up with God. Some people will accept the Gospel, to others it will be an offense (which is obvious), but it was an offense to myself (in some ways and I would expect to other Christains on this board at sometime also) at one point also.
John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. |
Yeah, I'm...
So sorry if I ever resisted
I never had a doubt that he ever existed
I only have a problem when people insist on
Taking their hate and placing it on his name |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:10 am Post subject: |
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Belief is simply a choice. "Just because something is true, doesn't mean you have to believe it" -as someone said to me once. You can't convince someone with facts alone, because ultimately, they believe what they want to. Why do you think nobody ever wins debates on here or admits they're wrong, changes their opinions? Because they've already chosen their standpoint from the outset- regardless of the facts presented in any argument.
" the word of the cross is foolishness to those that perish"
1 Corinthians 1:18
Unless you have the initial faith to ask God for understanding, then you will never understand the bible. Because you are relying on a limited, human perspective. A bit like a deep sea fish that is unable to believe there exists a sky with birds and clouds. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Rapier, I like that point of yours. lol, its good.
| Quote: |
| A bit like a deep sea fish that is unable to believe there exists a sky with birds and clouds. |
 I like that one, keep it up, even if its not yours, look for others similar. Its a good point. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
Rapier, I like that point of yours. lol, its good.
| Quote: |
| A bit like a deep sea fish that is unable to believe there exists a sky with birds and clouds. |
I like that one, keep it up, even if its not yours, look for others similar. Its a good point. |
Analogies are never good arguments though they are fun. This one doesn't work. You are basically just saying it's only a matter of time until humans develop the technology to travel to "heaven" and meet God.
This is the third time Rapier has used this analogy. The fish can't understand it until it develops technology to leave water and see the sky and birds. Or an alien life form (like humans) comes and swoops it out of the ocean in an aquarium in it's "airplanes" and shows it to him.
***Just because the fish can't understand it now and is in a very primitive time in it's development (and would then use religion to explain what goes on in the waterless world above, ie "heaven"), doesn't mean that later it won't be able to.
Actually, that analogy doesn't help you at all 
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
Actually, that analogy doesn't help you at all
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Well yes, but it has an element of truthiness to it, and these days truthiness counts for a lot more than facts, or logic, or any of those other passé buzzwords. |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Xian wrote: |
With God and the Bible, many just want to believe the parts that are comfortable to themselves and doesn't compromise their comfort in life in some form.
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And some people just want to respond to posts that they're comfortable with.
You're telling people to leave their comfort zones, yet you refuse to leave yours.
Isn't this an example of: "Do as I say, not as I do"? |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| SirFink wrote: |
| Xian wrote: |
| Many God's didn't create the universe, one God did. Many God's didn't create humanity, one God did. |
Genesis 1:26 ��Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image..." |
Thats the Trinity speaking. Not separate gods. |
Except that the Trinity did not exist until 325 A. D.
The Bible does describe God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, but they were not a Trinity until the Catholic Church decided so in the First Council of Nicaea.
Look in the Bible. There is no mention of a Holy Trinity. |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| Xian wrote: |
With God and the Bible, many just want to believe the parts that are comfortable to themselves and doesn't compromise their comfort in life in some form.
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And some people just want to respond to posts that they're comfortable with.
You're telling people to leave their comfort zones, yet you refuse to leave yours.
Isn't this an example of: "Do as I say, not as I do"? |
What haven't I responded to?
People have to decide for themselves, no one can make them, but it helps if people are a little more open to things that are not according to their usual understanding. I would like people to check things out for themselves though. Even if I were suggesting people check things out for themselves, I know that I can do it with some integrity having lived nearly 27 years without God, church and the Bible. I started on the 'heathen side of the fence' and switched. There is no comparison, but only someone who has seen both sides of the fence can say that. |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Xian wrote: |
What haven't I responded to?
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Oh, honestly, are you serious?
I'm disappointed in you.
Here it is, for the umpteenth (and hopefully, last) time ...
Jesus Christ may have been a mythical figure.
... in italics ...
Jesus Christ may have been a mythical figure.
... in bold print ...
Jesus Christ may have been a mythical figure.
... underlined ...
Jesus Christ may have been a mythical figure.
... in highlighting colour ...
Jesus Christ may have been a mythical figure.
... in huge letters ...
Jesus Christ may have been a mythical figure.
... and finally, the whole enchilada ...
Jesus Christ may have been a mythical figure. |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| Xian wrote: |
What haven't I responded to?
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Oh, honestly, are you serious?
I'm disappointed in you.
Here it is, for the umpteenth (and hopefully, last) time ...
Jesus Christ may have been a mythical figure.
] |
All that effort such a mute point....
It was partly delt with here through some of the links given, but seriously, the links given asume that His historicity is fact. That one is hardly even worth arguing. If someone says to me that He didn't exist, I am very suprised that they would believe that, regardless of belief system.
Many atheists know that it isn't even a serious argument. There was a thread that has been here before, the historical Jesus and it has come up in other threads also. This issue isn't about whether He was a real historical person or not, that is a fact, but if He were who He claims to be. The question for the thread is a step ahead of that. In the links posted here, eg: the one about the resurrection, there contains non-Christian sources that speak of Him. Even other religions believe Jesus existed. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
Actually, that analogy doesn't help you at all
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Well yes, but it has an element of truthiness to it, and these days truthiness counts for a lot more than facts, or logic, or any of those other passé buzzwords. |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| Xian wrote: |
All that effort such a mute point....
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Do you mean a moot point, Mr. Engrishy Teacher?
| Xian wrote: |
It was partly delt with here through some of the links given, but seriously, the links given asume that His historicity is fact. That one is hardly even worth arguing. |
I refuted everything in the link that you provided, but obviously, you never even bothered to read what I wrote.
You tell other people to get out of their comfort zones, but you refuse to leave yours.
Do as I say, not as I do.
| Xian wrote: |
If someone says to me that He didn't exist, I am very suprised that they would believe that, regardless of belief system.
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And why is that? It's a valid question.
| Xian wrote: |
Many atheists know that it isn't even a serious argument.
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And many people, including liberal Christians, know that there is an ongoing, scholarly debate that has not yet been settled conclusively.
Nor is it likely to unless, say, someone were to dig up previously-unknown, verifiable writings by a respected Roman historian such as Josephus.
| Xian wrote: |
This issue isn't about whether He was a real historical person or not, that is a fact ...
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No, it is NOT a fact. Facts require evidence. And as I pointed out previously, there is no credible evidence whatsoever that the man known as Yeshua of Nazareth ever existed. What little evidence apologists like yourself dutifully trot out has been largely refuted.
| Xian wrote: |
Even other religions believe Jesus existed.
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Does Jewish scripture really support the notion that Jesus really existed?
The Talmud states that Jesus lived in the 2nd century B.C.E (B.C.). However, this passage itself dates from the early 2nd century C.E. (A.D.). Also, the Jesus mentioned was a magician from Egypt who was hanged. The authors were probably basing their writings on a reaction to some of the dozens of Christian gospels circulating by that time.
This is supported by the fact that there were no mentions of Jesus in the earlier (Palestinian) version of the Talmud (around the 3rd and 4th centuries). Jesus only appears in the later, Babylonian, Talmud, which was not finished until about the year 600 C.E. (A.D.).
Does Muslim scripture really describe the same Jesus as the Bible's New Testament?
As we all know, names change form when they are translated from one language to another. Joan of Arc is the same person as Jeanne D'Arc. The name simply changed form as it was translated from French to English.
The Old Testament was written in Hebrew. The New Testament was written in Greek. When we go back to the original language, "Joshua" and "Jesus" are actually the same name.
The Q'ran mentions a "Jesus" who was a prophet. However, the Q'ran puts him around the time of Moses. The "Jesus" that the Q'ran mentions is actually "Joshua," the right-hand man and successor to Moses. Let's not forget that, according to the Q'ran, "Jesus" was never crucified. Even the most secular atheist who believes in a historical Jesus believes that Jesus was crucified. So the "Jesus" that the Q'ran mentions is actually "Joshua," Moses' successor.
Furthermore, if both the Bible and the Q'ran both contain myths, then the fact that both of these books share a mythical figure does not amount to evidence that that figure was an actual, historical person.
If you're afraid to debate because you're scared that your internal house of cards might come crashing down, then fine, but don't tell me that you've addressed the points I brought up because you did not.
Edit:
Here's a gift for you.
And here's another.
And another.
I read your links. Now read mine.
If you have anything at all to say after reading them, I'd love to hear it. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Okay so great there was a historical Jesus. Some third party sources report he existed, he had followers, and the followers thought some stuff about him.
But so what? As I've stated, that Homer got it right about Troy doesn't compel our belief in Zeus and cyclops. |
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