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Who supports the eradication of christianity as a belief?
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Who supports the eradication of Christianity as a belief?

I do

18%

[ 12 ]

I don't

69%

[ 46 ]

Maybe, depending on conditions

12%

[ 8 ]

Maybe, without conditions

[ 0 ]

Total Votes : 66

Author

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flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:45 am Post subject:

ddeubel wrote:

These are all with some guarantees of an end, a result. If I work, I know I will get paid (not hope). If I build a shelter, I see the work and know something will be standing. If I plant a seed, from observation and experience, I know they will grow.

Really? You know these things? So you have better fortune-telling abailities than the people who worked hard and didn't get paid or had all their pensions mis-managed, and the people who planted seeds only to have a drought or an early frost or a flash-flood ruin it all and the people whose dwellings were destroyed by mudslides or tornadoes or earthquakes. Please let us know when the won is about to go back down.

Christianity and many ideologies are only "pie in the sky". They offer no guarantees and a lot of suffering. It is a religion of prophesy and not NOW. Some hearty souls have tried to reform the church more towards an action orientation but without success......it is always in the interest of the powers that be, to keep this from happening.

What are talking about? Not a religion of NOW? Here is a list of the largest charities in the US in 2004 as compiled by Forbes Magazine:

Largest By Revenue

Mayo Foundation
YMCAs in the United States
Salvation Army
American National Red Cross
Catholic Charities USA
New York-Presbyterian Hospital
Goodwill Industries International
Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center
Mount Sinai
Cleveland Clinic Foundation

I'll guess you know what the "C" in YMCA stands for and you may know that "Goodwill" was founded by the Methodist minister, Edgar J. Helms. You may also already know that the founder of the original Red Cross, (Jean) Henri Dunant, was a devout Calvinist. And then there are the Salvation Army, Catholic Charities and Presbyterian Hospital. And these are merely from a list of ten. Anyway, the point is that there are so many charities tied to churches or founded by devout christians that are doing a lot of good for people NOW. Oh, the people who donate their time and money may be sacrificing a little bit during this life because they believe in eternal rewards or "pie in the sky" promises, but the people benefitting from those sacrifices benefit NOW. Yes, Christians believe that heaven is not now but in the next life. But they also believe in making life better for other people NOW.

In the Christian religion , from Catholicism to the Protestant work ethic (work is a way to be close to God), suffering is glorified and I stand by that comment. The cross and the blood of the death of Jesus are representations of this "religion" of suffering. In essence, it is a way for the elite to keep the people passified, keep them from demanding their heaven NOW. Just offer them a theory of some great heaven and glorification of their death -- then they will behave and let me have my spoils......See the Grand Inquisitor section of The Brothers Karazamov for a detailed explanation of how this works...

See another Dostoevsky novel, "The Idiot," and look at Prince Myshkin. Here we see that being beautifully good in this world means being perceived as an "idiot"...and suffering. Besides, that passage you mention is directed at the Catholic Church of years gone by when it and national governments were almost indistinguishable. See Myshkin's rant (when he knocks over the vase) where he calls the Pope the antichrist because he took up the sword and seized lands. Religion is no longer being used by [western] governments to control people nor does the Church weild power and influence in the manner the Catholic Church did way back when.
DD

fiveeagles

Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:41 am Post subject:

FF, great word!

Don Gately wrote:

fiveeagles wrote:

Captialism brings great evil.

What are your thoughts on liberation theology?

Looks interesting. I haven't heard too much about it. What are your thoughts on it?

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I agree, all we know if to decide "to be or not to be", continually second by second, breath by breath. Life is contingent, life cannot be discerned, the future is forever at our back and we step backward into it, gazing at the past (in horror). I agree. BUT, as humans we act according to what we know will probably happen. The events you mentioned are "unknowables" but still we know they exist. We know nothing of heaven or hell, yet still millions of all faiths pray and obey weird strictures and pop FAITH like it is "the real thing". This in my opinion is not living for the now. Christians and those of most religious persuasion are "MAGICAL" thinkers, no more informed than the pygmies (Kung-San) of the Kalahari, beating sticks on the ground to bring rain. They believe that if they live right, believe, read the bible, blablablablabla -- they will be rewarded. They believe life is a casino. They do certain things and riches, good life will be theirs. Very few do good without this specific premise...........let's be honest. So in that sense they are not of the everlasting religion but of "time's" religion. They are here for reward and feast and not gods work.

Especially charities which are driven less by GOODWILL and more by greed and capitalist bankaccounts, tax writeoffs. I know from experience. I ran a medium sized foundation for years. I started it because I was an athlete in the public eye. Spoke at all those big dinners, had private meetings with those of influence.....at the end of the day, it was for them about "managing their $$$$$", the bottom line. Sure, they wanted to feel good, do good. But to them the action of the NOW, was only a side event, a way to keep the Mercedes in the yard.

Quote:

What are talking about? Not a religion of NOW? Here is a list of the largest charities in the US in 2004 as compiled by Forbes Magazine:

Largest By Revenue

Mayo Foundation
YMCAs in the United States
Salvation Army
American National Red Cross
Catholic Charities USA
New York-Presbyterian Hospital
Goodwill Industries International
Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center
Mount Sinai
Cleveland Clinic Foundation

This makes me laugh me face off........All but tax write offs for greed and a way for the rich to assauge their guilt. I feel sorry for the truly passionate and helpful that are caught in their cash grab game. They are nothing better than the old bible salesmen who used to knock at the door and with one hand sell you the Lord and the other a hefty life insurance policy......NONE of them are with people following Schweitzer's example of reverance for life, going out to help the poor, the downtrodden. So knock it off with this................they step over the poor while walking up to their glittering "Charity" offices.

Quote:

See another Dostoevsky novel, "The Idiot," and look at Prince Myshkin. Here we see that being beautifully good in this world means being perceived as an "idiot"...and suffering. Besides, that passage you mention is directed at the Catholic Church of years gone by when it and national governments were almost indistinguishable. See Myshkin's rant (when he knocks over the vase) where he calls the Pope the antichrist because he took up the sword and seized lands. Religion is no longer being used by [western] governments to control people nor does the Church weild power and influence in the manner the Catholic Church did way back when.

I agree with all this......The Church has changed and isn't directing the ship. Yet, through the driver, it still sits in the back cruising along. No, direct power but it is in the mindset of many. Bush's own words of doing God's will are an example. When people make a lot of money they also quickly become devout (to keep their luck going, to feel less guilty). I love "The Idiot" and Dostoevski's point is that the road to good is NOT through deeds (charitable or otherwise) but of simplicity and living the life of who you are NOW and not of gain, future envisioned.

But I stand also by the statement that the Church, though indirectly , still controls people, still directs their belief system (re: abortion, daily living [work hard, love one wife yatayata...], homophobic, xenophobic, antievolution, abstenance, ), a belief system of we are RIGHT and others aren't.

Let's face it --- the religion of NOW isn't about meddling, helping. It is those buggers who think they are doing good, who are doing the most evil. The religion of NOW is living rightly- to who you are as a person. Letting all else swirl around you.....If we all did that, there would be a lot less turmoil on this planet. We should all be leaders of ONE and not followers...

DD

Don Gately

Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Location: In a basement taking a severe beating

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject:

fiveeagles wrote:

FF, great word!

Don Gately wrote:

fiveeagles wrote:

Captialism brings great evil.

What are your thoughts on liberation theology?

Looks interesting. I haven't heard too much about it. What are your thoughts on it?

As a lapsed Catholic it's one of the few movements within the last hundred years or so which make me proud of my cultural heritage as an Irish/Italian.

The pedophilia and the draconian birth-control policy we have taken to places with booming population problems (Africa, India [thanks Mother Teresa], South America)...

...not so much.

flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:21 am Post subject:

[quote="ddeubel"]

Quote:

I don't really see your point. First, you make amazingly big assumptions and generalizations about people who give to charities. I guess you learned from your experience what all charities are like and what all the people who donate to them are like. Then, you cut out the part about Henri Dunant and Edgar J. Helms and add your example of Schweitzer-a Calvinist minister. You are agreeing with me apparently. I used charities because it is easy to find lists on the Net and I don't have time compile lists of individuals. I'd like to see your proof that the people involved in "Catholic Charities" or the "Salvation Army" only care about tax write-offs, by the way. This assertion makes ME laugh my face off. Anyway, look at the kinds of people who started "Salvation Army," or "Goodwill" or "YMCA" and check out what motivated them. And throw in Schweitzer since you brought him up. These were all just a bunch of Christians not concerned about the now?

DD

Bulsajo

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:09 am Post subject:

Anyone watch South Park, season 10, episode 4, "Cartoon Wars Part 2"? It made the hypocrisy of a supposedly liberal and progressive network like Comedy Central pretty stark and painfully obvious. On one hand, you have animated Jesus taking a dump, while Muhammed can't even just stand there innocently without getting censored. Certainly South Park has never encouraged a religious fan base, but I think many Christians would appreciate the message Stone and Parker are trying to send in this episode.

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I am talking "in general" -- of course people give money for many reasons but I don't equate "giving money" as CHARITY. It isn't in any sense, Christian or otherwise. Charity is an act of selflessness, it is quiet and noble and personal. An act of one human being to another. It is the mother, giving comfort to a child not her own. It is the friend letting someone he/she doesn't know, spend time in their apartment. It is the touch and comfort of one human being for another........It is not a cheque book.

If you want names of charitable donors as an example, look at Ken Lay -- the LARGEST charitable donor in the USA. Christian, yeah, he quickly became one when the roof came crashing in. A typical example of those "philanthropists", those engaged in "giving". I say to any charity --- take their money but call them scoundrels in your heart. Ken Lay, Enron, is just one of many "charitable" types in the western world.

My point: charity is done not for any reward. It is a natural act of the person and not something contingent on the future. Christianity says good acts are rewarded............I beg to differ, this is a lie and one more reason to knock the religion. They have commodified/quantified goodness..........a plague on all their houses...........charity is quiet and done without pretense....

DD

flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject:

ddeubel wrote:

Christianity says good acts are rewarded............I beg to differ, this is a lie and one more reason to knock the religion.

DD

I see. So the one of the world's big problems is that there are millions of people out there who are doing good deeds, donating time and resources while believing that they will be rewarded in the afterlife. Gotcha.

fiveeagles

Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:27 am Post subject:

flakfizer wrote:

ddeubel wrote:

Christianity says good acts are rewarded............I beg to differ, this is a lie and one more reason to knock the religion.

DD

I agree with you FF. DD have you been to an orphanage or a place where people were helping? It's awesome to be a witness to the many things people do by actions and not by talking. Many of these servants of God go unnoticed and will not be recognized until the next life.

The difference being between true charity and your understanding of charity is humility. I agree that the church mostly does things to be seen, but Jesus words were do things that are not seen. For if you do things that are seen what reward do you have, but if you do things aren't seen then you will be rewarded in heaven. However, isn't this about God's glory and not his suffering? That through the name of Jesus, people would be fed, the orphans looked after and the people healed?

I mention this because in your posts leading up to this post you talk of how Christian's are stuck on suffering. Well, which is it? Are they stuck on suffering or are they stuck on being recognized? Polar opposites if you ask me.

My point being is that God's glory is manifest in His suffering. Christians help others because they want to see people helped.

You might not believe this because you have no vision of the future. Hope brings vision and a future. Which is sadly missing in your posts.

Privateer

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:39 pm Post subject:

canuckistan wrote:

Religious/spiritual beliefs are fine if they stay personal.
It gets stupid when people try to shove it down other people's throats or they have the nerve to want money for it.

This is probably a majority consensus view but I just don't get it. It works with Buddhism but, if you're a Christian, you have to believe that anyone who refuses to accept Christianity is ultimately going to hell. You can't just go around ignoring that like it's none of your business, any more than you can ignore someone drowning in the river. If you sincerely believe in Christianity you should dedicate your life to proselytising, no matter how annoyed people get.

Don Gately

Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Location: In a basement taking a severe beating

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject:

Privateer wrote:

I think this analogy only works if the person drowning in the river is screaming "*beep* off! I want to die! Don't rescue me! Do you hear me? Leave me alone! I don't want to be rescued!"

But then it becomes a question of euthanasia.

out of context

Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Location: Daejeon

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject:

Or, just to beat the analogy even further, that the person in the river actually knows how to swim just fine, and the rescuer only thinks that that person is drowning because they falsely assume it's impossible to be in a river and not drown. And the life preserver that the rescuer throws is made of guilt, repression and wishful thinking but has no actual material substance. I'm well aware that many Christians feel obligated to "share the good news" as part of their belief systems. And contrary to whatever impression I might give in a message board scenario, I don't like to proselytize myself. I don't want to confront anyone about their beliefs; the world is a hard enough place to live in without inventing reasons to fight each other. I don't want Christianity eradicated. There are 6.5 billion people on this planet who are not me and who don't share my beliefs. I would never want to get between any of them and their religious beliefs, as long as they don't interfere with my quality of life. However, that all too often seems like too much to ask. What I would like to see eradicated is people making other people suffer because their beliefs are different.

Troll_Bait

Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:54 pm Post subject:

fiveeagles wrote:

Troll_Bait wrote:

wannago wrote:

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the
Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even
unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28: 18-20

Jesus instructed his followers to avoid Gentiles and the cities of the Samaritans. The Gospel was to be spread to Jews only - to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying:
"Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans."
"But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

- Matthew 10:5 & 10:6 (New King James version, Jesus' exact words highlighted in red)

That was before the Holy Spirit. Once the Holy Spirit was released upon the earth than the command was, "To preach into all the nations." Cool

As an aspect/facet of God, the Holy Spirit is both eternal and omnipresent.
In other words, it has always existed everywhere, and did not suddenly come into existance on Earth at the very end of Jesus' ministry.

Also, "nations" can either mean "peoples" or "countries," so it can still mean to go to all the countries in the world and preach to the Jews who are living there.

In other words, I'm not convinced that the original covenant was overturned or altered.

And lastly, as The_Urban_Myth pointed out:

"If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you.
And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet."

- Matthew 10:13 & 10: 14 (New King James version)

In other words, leave people be if they don't want to hear it.

Troll_Bait

Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:25 am Post subject:

out of context wrote:

Or, just to beat the analogy even further, that the person in the river actually knows how to swim just fine, and the rescuer only thinks that that person is drowning because they falsely assume it's impossible to be in a river and not drown. And the life preserver that the rescuer throws is made of guilt, repression and wishful thinking but has no actual material substance.

I'm well aware that many Christians feel obligated to "share the good news" as part of their belief systems. And contrary to whatever impression I might give in a message board scenario, I don't like to proselytize myself. I don't want to confront anyone about their beliefs; the world is a hard enough place to live in without inventing reasons to fight each other.

I don't want Christianity eradicated. There are 6.5 billion people on this planet who are not me and who don't share my beliefs. I would never want to get between any of them and their religious beliefs, as long as they don't interfere with my quality of life. However, that all too often seems like too much to ask. What I would like to see eradicated is people making other people suffer because their beliefs are different.

Or to torture the analogy yet further ...

A: You're drowning! Let me save you!

B: No, I'm not. I'm doing the backstroke.

A: But you have to do the butterfly stroke or you'll drown!

B: How do you know?

A: My Big Book tells me that the backstroke leads to drowning!

B: Well, my book says different.

A: My book is true, and yours is full of bullsh!t.

B: Now you're being rude.

A: I'm being rude to save you.

B: But I don't need to be saved! Haven't you listened to a single thing I've said?!

fiveeagles

Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:16 am Post subject:

[quote="Troll_Bait"]

out of context wrote:

You make some good points, but have you read ACTS? In it, the great divide between the Jews and the gentiles is bridged when Peter goes to the gentiles to preach the gospel. It's an amazing story. The Jews are no longer the only ones who are favored by God. The Holy Spirit is now able to be received by all men.

This is because of the work of Christ. TB, you are right that the Holy Spirit has always been around, but He hasn't always been available to man. The only reason we can now accept the Holy Spirit into our lives, is because of the sacrifice by Christ. Through His sacrifice, Jesus conquered sin and allowed humanity to enter into relationship with God. Without His sacrifice, none would enter into Heaven.

Quote:

And lastly, as The_Urban_Myth pointed out:

"[color=red]If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you.
And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet."

- Matthew 10:13 & 10: 14 (New King James version)

In other words, leave people be if they don't want to hear it.

You know Trollbait, the amazing thing about Jesus are the parables. Have you ever thought why he spoke in parables?

So my question to you is, how do you reconcile the truth you gave me with this truth;

12When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem. 13Then Paul answered, "Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." 14When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, "The Lord's will be done."
Acts 21:12

Paul willfully went to his death in Jerusalem. Why didn't he heed the scripture that you quoted?

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