|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
|
 Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject: School's Out Forever |
 |
|
School's Out Forever
What do you guys think? I tried to look up some statistics, and it seems as if academically, it's pretty much accepted on both sides that children tend to do better (though not by a whole lot). One thing I found out and didn't know about before, though it makes perfect sense when I thought about it after ...
| Quote: |
��Today, 75 percent of American home schoolers are practicing Christians.�� The National Center for Education Statistics, in its report Homeschooling in the United States : 1999 gave another interesting statistic: 38.4% of homeschooling parents gave ��Religious reasons�� as a reason for homeschooling, and 15.1% gave ��To develop character/morality�� as a reason (Bielick, 11).
|
I still have serious doubts about the social aspect. They say this...
| Quote: |
You think homeschooled children never meet other kids? They meet them all the time, they protest - at ballet class, at church, on excursions arranged by and for homeschoolers. You think children mingle widely at school? School culture virtually precludes any but the most cursory contacts between children of different ages.
|
But you will most likely meet the same kinds of people from roughly the same demographics. I highly doubt they would ever meet children outside their social groups (like poor kids, or immigrants, etc etc...) in these outings, ... I have a few other problems with it too, but have class  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Corporal
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: School's Out Forever |
|
|
| laogaiguk wrote: |
But you will most likely meet the same kinds of people from roughly the same demographics. I highly doubt they would ever meet children outside their social groups (like poor kids, or immigrants, etc etc...) in these outings, |
I doubt very much that kids who go to public school are more likely to socialize with poor kids or immigrants or other social classes than kids who are homeschooled. In fact, one could argue the former group is far *more* cliquish and insular than the latter. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
krats1976
Joined: 14 May 2003
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't know if I'll go this route with my own kids or not. I have friends who've homeschooled (or been homeschooled). It can be a great thing if done right--or a disaster if done wrong. Here are a couple of examples:
Case #1: Family homeschooled the youngest 6 of 10 kids through elementary school. The parents were both well educated (the dad was even a professor) and the kids were self-motivators. When the parents felt they'd reached the limits of what they could teach, they put the kids in public school (all in honors or accelerated programs because they were so far ahead). The kids interacted with friends and neighbors regularly and were very well rounded.
Case #2: Family homeschooled both of their 2 daughters all the way through HS. Neither parent had more than a HS diploma. Homeschooling for them was a tool to help keep their childrend sheltered from the evils of the world. The kids intereacted with other kids only at church (small town=small congregation=not much interaction). When I knew them, the kids were high-school age and were 1) not very well educated and 2) dangerously naive.
In case #1, the parents were realistic and homeschooled because they thought it was the best way to give their kids a good education. The kids are doing very well and will (I believe) lead fullfilling lives.
The kids in case #2 I worry a lot about. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: School's Out Forever |
|
|
| Corporal wrote: |
I doubt very much that kids who go to public school are more likely to socialize with poor kids or immigrants or other social classes than kids who are homeschooled. In fact, one could argue the former group is far *more* cliquish and insular than the latter. |
Completely wrong. Sure, your "cose friends", ie that group of 5 or 6 kids that you do stuff at lunch time with, and see on the weekend, they are likely to be either from the same neighourhood, or kids of your parents friends, or somehow connected, and probably from the same social class. But school forces all kinds of interactions, from group projects, school clubs, sports teams, trips away, and just general interaction in the classroom and playground. The difference in socialisation level between homeschooled and public schooled kids is like night and day. And as stated, mostly home schooling is specifically done to keep kids naive about the world, and only have contact with christian bs, teach them creationism and other rubbish like that. Great way to ruin another potentially good citizen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: School's Out Forever |
|
|
| Satori wrote: |
| Corporal wrote: |
I doubt very much that kids who go to public school are more likely to socialize with poor kids or immigrants or other social classes than kids who are homeschooled. In fact, one could argue the former group is far *more* cliquish and insular than the latter. |
Completely wrong. Sure, your "cose friends", ie that group of 5 or 6 kids that you do stuff at lunch time with, and see on the weekend, they are likely to be either from the same neighourhood, or kids of your parents friends, or somehow connected, and probably from the same social class. But school forces all kinds of interactions, from group projects, school clubs, sports teams, trips away, and just general interaction in the classroom and playground. The difference in socialisation level between homeschooled and public schooled kids is like night and day. And as stated, mostly home schooling is specifically done to keep kids naive about the world, and only have contact with christian bs, teach them creationism and other rubbish like that. Great way to ruin another potentially good citizen. |
What Satori said. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:47 am Post subject: Re: School's Out Forever |
|
|
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| Corporal wrote: |
I doubt very much that kids who go to public school are more likely to socialize with poor kids or immigrants or other social classes than kids who are homeschooled. In fact, one could argue the former group is far *more* cliquish and insular than the latter. |
Completely wrong. Sure, your "cose friends", ie that group of 5 or 6 kids that you do stuff at lunch time with, and see on the weekend, they are likely to be either from the same neighourhood, or kids of your parents friends, or somehow connected, and probably from the same social class. But school forces all kinds of interactions, from group projects, school clubs, sports teams, trips away, and just general interaction in the classroom and playground. The difference in socialisation level between homeschooled and public schooled kids is like night and day. And as stated, mostly home schooling is specifically done to keep kids naive about the world, and only have contact with christian bs, teach them creationism and other rubbish like that. Great way to ruin another potentially good citizen. |
What Satori said. |
I second(third, really, I guess) the motion.
Nothing like teaching a kid, and keeping her away from the differing opinions of others, that the world is 6000 years old to ensure she will join a cohort of citizens that will populate states which will vote for the Bush Dynasty.
All in favor, say I. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Corporal
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:45 am Post subject: Re: School's Out Forever |
|
|
| Satori wrote: |
| The difference in socialisation level between homeschooled and public schooled kids is like night and day |
How would you know? Have you spent time with many homeschooled vs. public-schooled children? How would you know anything about the difference in their "socialization levels"--as if such a thing could even be quantifiably measured.
| Quote: |
| mostly home schooling is specifically done to keep kids naive about the world |
This is not a factual statement. When you make it you are ascribing motives to people you have never met and know nothing about. However if you would care to throw a percentage out there regarding the number of homeschoolers you personally feel are only interested in keeping their kids naive, please go for it.  It'll be about as statistically sound as me figuring out my chance of getting TB from counting the puddles of spittle on the sidewalk. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:59 am Post subject: Re: School's Out Forever |
|
|
| Corporal wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| The difference in socialisation level between homeschooled and public schooled kids is like night and day |
How would you know? Have you spent time with many homeschooled vs. public-schooled children? How would you know anything about the difference in their "socialization levels"--as if such a thing could even be quantifiably measured.
|
Don't have to know the kids, just the situation they are in, to effectively work this out. One group has contact with much larger number and much greater variety of other kids than the other group. It's a no brainer.
As for keeping them naive, it's a well known fact that the majority of homeschooling is done by whacky christian fundy types to keep thier kids away from real information about the reality of the world. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: ... |
|
|
| Quote: |
Don't have to know the kids, just the situation they are in, to effectively work this out. One group has contact with much larger number and much greater variety of other kids than the other group. It's a no brainer.
As for keeping them naive, it's a well known fact that the majority of homeschooling is done by whacky christian fundy types to keep thier kids away from real information about the reality of the world. |
Corporal made some very clear points which you, apparently, would prefer to ignore.
Likewise, who the majority of home-schoolers are doesn't matter in terms of whether it is worthwhile or viable.
Then again, I believe Corporal addressed that quite succintly.
The variety of social exposure and the exactly what is taught/learned depend greatly on who's implementing the program.
Public schools range in size from as small as 15 to a graduating class to thousands. The student body depends largely upon where they are located in terms of racial and economic diversity. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My Aunt and Uncle are homeschooling their children for religious reasons mostly. Unfortuneately they teach them things like:
There never were any dinosaurs....god created the world 6000 years ago and put the dinosaur bones in the ground to show us his power.
Evolution is a fiction made up by scientists......creationism is how things really are.
They have a whole host of other nonsense they teach the kids as facts. They really should be taught that these are opinions or beliefs they are being taught...not fact.
Homeschooling can be good if it is done by rational intelligent people. When its done by religous nutjobs.............wellllllllllllllll |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
|
|
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Quote: |
Don't have to know the kids, just the situation they are in, to effectively work this out. One group has contact with much larger number and much greater variety of other kids than the other group. It's a no brainer.
As for keeping them naive, it's a well known fact that the majority of homeschooling is done by whacky christian fundy types to keep thier kids away from real information about the reality of the world. |
Corporal made some very clear points which you, apparently, would prefer to ignore.
Likewise, who the majority of home-schoolers are doesn't matter in terms of whether it is worthwhile or viable.
Then again, I believe Corporal addressed that quite succintly.
The variety of social exposure and the exactly what is taught/learned depend greatly on who's implementing the program.
Public schools range in size from as small as 15 to a graduating class to thousands. The student body depends largely upon where they are located in terms of racial and economic diversity. |
Yes, there will be a few cases where they will have less exposure to different social groups, but I would put it at less that 1%, seeing as most people aren't rich enough to send their kids to white prep schools.
Seriously, you don't need statistics for common sense. Corporal doesn't seem to need them for his crazy statements, like this one...
| Quote: |
| I doubt very much that kids who go to public school are more likely to socialize with poor kids or immigrants or other social classes than kids who are homeschooled. In fact, one could argue the former group is far *more* cliquish and insular than the latter. |
Also,
| Quote: |
| Likewise, who the majority of home-schoolers are doesn't matter in terms of whether it is worthwhile or viable. |
Yes it does, you can't just ignore a major factor like that. If it happened that only Scientologists were doing this, you probably would have agreed. And yes, I am a mind reader. Sometimes things are quite obvious, like the fact that no rich homeschooling parent (you have to have some money just to keep one parent at home nowadays, but usually they have more, check the article) will actively seek out poor, non-Christian children from uneducated parents for their children to interact with (or immigrants, or even rich Muslim children, etc etc). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
OK, MY SECOND POINT!!!
Imagine you went to university and you had only one prof teaching you every class (let's say he was extremely intelligent, funny and social, practically perfect). You would still only get one (or two) person's view on everything. Being homeschooled means you are learning everything from one (or two) people, who have certain set opinions and prejudices (and I am not only talking religious, imagine someone homeschooled by a racist who doesn't really realize he's a racist, or someone who abolutely hates religion, these prejudices would show). Some parents probably have guest speakers or watch educational videos and get some degree of difference of opinion (though all that stuff is probably screened), but in the end, it's the teacher who reinforces everything that is learned. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Corporal
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| laogaiguk wrote: |
OK, MY SECOND POINT!!!
Imagine you went to university and you had only one prof teaching you every class (let's say he was extremely intelligent, funny and social, practically perfect). You would still only get one (or two) person's view on everything. Being homeschooled means you are learning everything from one (or two) people, who have certain set opinions and prejudices (and I am not only talking religious, imagine someone homeschooled by a racist who doesn't really realize he's a racist, or someone who abolutely hates religion, these prejudices would show). Some parents probably have guest speakers or watch educational videos and get some degree of difference of opinion (though all that stuff is probably screened), but in the end, it's the teacher who reinforces everything that is learned. |
This is a worthwhile argument, at least. And certainly if a child is exclusively homeschooled (i.e. right up to university), there is a chance that he or she will have missed out. Still, I'll present the other side of the coin: these quotes are from the OP's link.
| Quote: |
| There is nothing on earth intended for innocent people so horrible as a school," wrote the partly home-educated George Bernard Shaw. "It is a prison (where teachers) discourse without charm on subjects they don't understand and don't care about." |
| Quote: |
| the "tyranny of compulsory schooling" |
| Quote: |
| [While] a teacher in charge of 30 children has no hope of catering to their different levels of intelligence and motivation (never mind their preferences on light and noise, posture and the scheduling of breaks), parents responsible for a much smaller group - their own children - can and do. |
Anyway, other things being equal, I doubt if anyone would want to claim that the average student learns better in a class of 30 than when surrounded by only a couple of siblings. Certainly a bright student or a slower student is going to have their needs met far better by an individual teacher, not some stressed classroom bee who is spreading her or himself thin trying to get to all the students in the space of a forty-five minute lesson.
If it's really that hard for anyone to visualize this, just think about our jobs here. Where do your students learn more? In a public school or academy class where they are drowned out by their obnoxious friends? Or one-on-one with you, going to a coffee shop and having a chat? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hermes.trismegistus
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: School's Out Forever |
|
|
| Satori wrote: |
| And as stated, mostly home schooling is specifically done to keep kids naive about the world, and only have contact with christian bs, teach them creationism and other rubbish like that. Great way to ruin another potentially good citizen. |
Umm... No.
You might reference Breton and Largent's The Paradigm Conspiracy, or John Gatto's Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Education and The Underground History of American Education.
| Quote: |
The primary objective is to convert human raw material into human resources which can be employed efficiently by the managers of government and the economy. The original purposes of schooling were to make good people (the religious purpose), to make good citizens (the public purpose) and to make individuals their personal best (the private purpose). Throughout the 19th century, a new Fourth Purpose began to emerge, tested thoroughly in the military state of Prussia in northern Europe. The Fourth Purpose made the point of mass schooling to serve big business and big government by extending childhood, replacing thinking with drill and memorization while fashioning incomplete people unable to protect themselves from exhortation, advertising and other forms of indirect command. In this fashion, poor Prussia with a small population became one of the great powers of the earth. Its new schooling method was imitated far and wide, from Japan to the United States.
...
Reflexive obedience is at the heart of the thing. The principal way this is measured is through testing, and most recently through standardized testing. Other vital attributes of a model modern citizen—each necessary to the health of a mass production economy—are an indifferent or poor ability to speak in a public forum or to write cogently (hence rendering all protest ineffective and short-lived) and an inability to think critically (which opens the mind to receptivity to various forms of coercion, like advertising).
Few of us stop to consider the message of school bells, for instance, though many of us are aware that rats and dogs have been trained to respond to such signals for a century and more. If, at the clang of a gong or the sound of a buzzer we must stop whatever it is that we are doing and go to another cell where we begin doing something entirely different, the constant repetition of these drills over the years sets up an internal state where, for many, nothing is worth beginning because the natural predilection to continue or finish will be frustrated.
This particular routine is matched by others in its pernicious effect. Consider the short-answer test which requires the commitment to memory of disconnected bits of information. Good, perhaps, for quiz show contestants, but utterly detrimental to the high order thinking skill of reasoning from whole contexts. For most of us, the ability to think like a policy maker has been destroyed upon our emergence from high school.
...
State-approved standardized curriculum acts the way blinders do on a horse—they focus attention narrowly on a body of data arranged in a particular way by invisible employees of the political state. This data cannot be argued with, substituted for or amended. The dialectical processes with which thinkers like Aristotle were familiar thousands of years ago—and elite private boarding schools like Groton and St. Paul��s are quite conversant with today—simply don��t exist for public school students. |
Etc.
Sometimes families adopt homeschooling as a method of ensuring competence, quite contrary to your stated opinion.
Namaste. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Corporal wrote: |
This is a worthwhile argument, at least. And certainly if a child is exclusively homeschooled (i.e. right up to university), there is a chance that he or she will have missed out. Still, I'll present the other side of the coin: these quotes are from the OP's link.
| Quote: |
| There is nothing on earth intended for innocent people so horrible as a school," wrote the partly home-educated George Bernard Shaw. "It is a prison (where teachers) discourse without charm on subjects they don't understand and don't care about." |
| Quote: |
| the "tyranny of compulsory schooling" |
| Quote: |
| [While] a teacher in charge of 30 children has no hope of catering to their different levels of intelligence and motivation (never mind their preferences on light and noise, posture and the scheduling of breaks), parents responsible for a much smaller group - their own children - can and do. |
Anyway, other things being equal, I doubt if anyone would want to claim that the average student learns better in a class of 30 than when surrounded by only a couple of siblings. Certainly a bright student or a slower student is going to have their needs met far better by an individual teacher, not some stressed classroom bee who is spreading her or himself thin trying to get to all the students in the space of a forty-five minute lesson.
If it's really that hard for anyone to visualize this, just think about our jobs here. Where do your students learn more? In a public school or academy class where they are drowned out by their obnoxious friends? Or one-on-one with you, going to a coffee shop and having a chat? |
Corporal, it's already been pointed out in the OP that kids tend to learn better and have higher academic scores than public schooled ones. I am trying to discuss the social aspect of it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
