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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| sundubuman wrote: |
The closest we have ever come to such an idea might have been Rumsfeld "Old Europe" and "New Europe" distinction, |
What about the Cold War 'East Europe' and 'West Europe'?
And on the whole I'd state the obvious and say that the American-European relationship has undergone fundamental changes since the end of the Cold War. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Alot of the anti-Americanism in Europe is a result of the still powerful influence of Communist and Socialist Labour parties, particularly in France and Italy. Moreover, much of the state media in such countries, as well as the educational establishment (which influences millions of impressionable kids) is horribly left wing and anti-Western. America, being the leading country of the West, thus comes in for most of the vitriol, with Muslims, and non-Whites, the eternal victims.
That's why you have these idiotic kids painting swastikas on the US Flag, and comparing Bush to Hilter. Of course, tiny Israel is a threat to 'world peace'. No demonstrations about Darfur, or the rampant human rights abuses in Muslim nations that dwarf anything in Abu Ghraib, because we couldn't possibly criticise those poor, victimised brown people. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: |
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Big Verne,
As much as I have (almost) always agreed with you on most things on this board....
the anti-americanism in europe actually emanates from Britain. It is only convenient for you to forget that. britain looked down its nose at America for ????centuries??? and only recently made peace with american culture in the last 30 years (even in the 80's there was major condescension)...
I was present at the time to witness anti-americanism and trust me, it was not any weaker in London than in Paris.
These days a lot of brits seem to want to have it all....a bit'o anti-americanism......with a splash a-antifrancism..... shaken with a whole lot of globalism...........
all the while forgetting Britain is a major player in subduing terrorism and promoting democracy
it's tough combining being cool with being right........ |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| the anti-americanism in europe actually emanates from Britain |
I agree with you that many people in Britain are quite anti-American also, but I don't think it is nearly as bad as in continental Europe. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:39 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Though simplistic, I think that a majority of the problem is that Europeans think it is their god given right to run the world. The fancy themselves the moral center of the universe and a quite bitter at their current situation.
Quick! Try and think of a bad political movement or idea that did not first start in (continental) Europe!
In the end, America is the big dick on the block, and because of that the small dicks will hate, wine and moan. I really wouldn't worry about it if you are American. Trade deficit or not, America is going to be the most powerful country for quite some time. China will get old before she gets rich, and is also set for ecological collapse, India has far too much democracy for her level of development and Brazil is, well, Brazil. America is the valedictorian of summer school. Expect some crying from the other students.
But the OP was out to lunch with her attempt to compare anti-Americanism with Yanks not liking Europe.
Oh well, just more idiotic comparisons being spouted by the European left. I think you might do better defending that thug Chavez and his loony toon administration in Venezuela or making a Che montage. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Though simplistic, I think that a majority of the problem is that Europeans think it is their god given right to run the world. The fancy themselves the moral center of the universe and a quite bitter at their current situation.
Quick! Try and think of a bad political movement or idea that did not first start in (continental) Europe! |
Juche!
That was quick. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:09 am Post subject: |
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BJWD wrote:
Though simplistic, I think that a majority of the problem is that Europeans think it is their god given right to run the world. The fancy themselves the moral center of the universe and a quite bitter at their current situation.
Quick! Try and think of a bad political movement or idea that did not first start in (continental) Europe!
Juche!
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And you could throw the Ku Klux Klan in there as well.
Plus, the modern eugenics movement, while it reached its horrifying climax in Nazi Germany, was not at a particularly "continental" affair at the theoretical stage. It more-or-less originated with Francis Galton, who was an Englishman. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:34 am Post subject: |
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I was wondering what people would come up with.
Juche! Good answer. Though, could there be a relationship with that and dependency theory. But I don't know which came first.
I don't know enough about eugenics to comment, so I'll take yer word for it.
I think the KKK has solid roots in Nazi ideology, and Caucasian racism before that (it isn't like the first white racists lived in Mississippi). I'm gonna chalk that one up as a gift from Germany and European hubris. Though I could be wrong. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
So, yeah, some Yanks might get a tad annoyed at your average European and his or her tendency to moralize nonstop about this and that regarding America (all the while forgetting that the problems of this world, today, are by and large the product of their actions yesterday).
And the suggestion that American universities tend to whitewash American crimes is laughable. The darlings of the Uni gab circuit are Chomsky and Ward Churchill. I can't believe the author even thought this to be true. The depths of self-loathing in American universities is profound, and spills over into Canada where it becomes hate manifested in smugness.
Europe had her day, and she colonized more than half the world and screwed it up for many years to come. It seems that America now has been given the job of cleaning it all up (with mixed results) and the constant moaning from Europe is more than ridiculous.
In my opinion, (continental) Europe would better serve the world by reforming her sinking economic situation so that she may actually maintain and grow her power in the future. That way, perhaps, they can do more instead of acting like perpetual armchair quarterbacks. Nobody respects an armchair quarterback. |
Wonderful post here.
Particularly Paragraphs 1 & 2. |
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Panic Button
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: |
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Does Big Bird or anyone else have any pics of Americans burning any European flags or desecrating them in any way? (How about Americans burning any Latin American or Middle Eastern flags while we're at it?)
AntiAmericanism is real and not imagined, and, at times, is bitterly and quite violently expressed. |
Burning flags? America's style seems a bit more aggressive than that to me. Do you ever see any European, Latin American or Middle Eastern country's armies bombing American cities with depleted uranium? Or their secret police forces using mercenary death squads in America? Or the American countryside being sprayed with poisonous chemicals?
Yes, or no?
The reasons for people being anti-American are, unfortunately, not imagined. Pro-Americanism is, unfortunately, more violently and bitterly expressed. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:58 am Post subject: |
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Burning flags? America's style seems a bit more aggressive than that to me. Do you ever see any European, Latin American or Middle Eastern country's armies bombing American cities with depleted uranium? Or their secret police forces using mercenary death squads in America? Or the American countryside being sprayed with poisonous chemicals?
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No, but I have seen British soldiers helping the Americans to do all those things in Iraq. How often do you see the British flag defaced with a swastika by anti-war protestors in London?
Oh, and to show you what a gentleman I am, I'll even write your repsonse for you...
"The majority of British people are deeply opposed to this war, which was forced upon us by the war criminal Bush. We are much more informed about the worlld than Americans, and the only reason Tony Blair was re-elected last time was..."
Sorry I couldn't think of a suitable ending, but I've never heard a coherent explanation from any Brit about how his compatriots can be so opposed to the war, while giving 70% of the vote in the last election to pro-war parties. |
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Panic Button
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
Burning flags? America's style seems a bit more aggressive than that to me. Do you ever see any European, Latin American or Middle Eastern country's armies bombing American cities with depleted uranium? Or their secret police forces using mercenary death squads in America? Or the American countryside being sprayed with poisonous chemicals?
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No, but I have seen British soldiers helping the Americans to do all those things in Iraq. How often do you see the British flag defaced with a swastika by anti-war protestors in London? |
Never, but the Iraq war is part of American imperialism, not British imperialism.
For the record, i've been to a lot of events in Britain which you could describe as anti-American, and the nearest thing I've seen to the American flag being defaced is it being displayed upside down on the 4th July, when a bunch of hippies had an "independence from America" type thing at the local pub (part of a wider demonstation). Nice idea, shame about the hippies.
Its interesting how seriously Americans view the stars and stripes as a sacred kind of symbol, and take a lot more offence to it being misused than British people do their flag. Before you ask, no I wouldn't particularly like to see the union flag (or St. Georges cross) have a swastika daubed over it by Italians, but i could understand why a naive young student would be p1ssed off enough to do it if we persued the same foreign policies as America.
We Europeans have a lot to be thankful to America for..... techno, blues, hip hop, decent films, science and helping us do the fascists in to name a few. So cheers y'all, but these days you've got to accept warranted criticism of your government without crying about people being anti-American.
Keep up the GOOD work. |
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Panic Button
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| I've never heard a coherent explanation from any Brit about how his compatriots can be so opposed to the war, while giving 70% of the vote in the last election to pro-war parties. |
Ok, i'll try and be as coherent as I can; let me know how I do....
I voted for Tony Blair in the last election because on a number of domestic issues the labour party are still a far superior option to the Tory scumbags, and appear a much more competent group of people to run the country than the Tory scumbags. As you know, foreign policy alone doesn't decide an election.
So why didn't everyone who was anti-war vote for the third option, the Lib Dems? Because their manifesto seemed mostly based on political opportunism rather than commitment to their cause, and because a lot of anti-war folk are inclined at least marginally to the left, and saw a vote for the Lib dems as vote taken away from Labour, which could further the ugly possibility of the right wing Tory scumbags getting back in.
Also, the Labour leadership does not represent the party as a whole in its pro-war stance..... A lot of people were/are opposed to war in the labour party. Very few, if any were/are in the Tory scumbag party.[/quote] |
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Panic Button
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
I was wondering what people would come up with.
Juche! Good answer. Though, could there be a relationship with that and dependency theory. But I don't know which came first.
I don't know enough about eugenics to comment, so I'll take yer word for it.
I think the KKK has solid roots in Nazi ideology, and Caucasian racism before that (it isn't like the first white racists lived in Mississippi). I'm gonna chalk that one up as a gift from Germany and European hubris. Though I could be wrong. |
You are wrong......
Ku klux Klan membership from wikipedia:
year membership
1920 4,000,000
1930 30,000
1970 2,000
2000 3,000
The ku klux Klan is an American invention.
Bring on the accusations of me being anti-American for posting straight facts.... |
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