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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:31 am Post subject: |
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I've never heard a coherent explanation from any Brit about how his compatriots can be so opposed to the war, while giving 70% of the vote in the last election to pro-war parties.
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Ok, i'll try and be as coherent as I can; let me know how I do....
I voted for Tony Blair in the last election because on a number of domestic issues the labour party are still a far superior option to the Tory scumbags, and appear a much more competent group of people to run the country than the Tory scumbags. As you know, foreign policy alone doesn't decide an election.
So why didn't everyone who was anti-war vote for the third option, the Lib Dems? Because their manifesto seemed mostly based on political opportunism rather than commitment to their cause, and because a lot of anti-war folk are inclined at least marginally to the left, and saw a vote for the Lib dems as vote taken away from Labour, which could further the ugly possibility of the right wing Tory scumbags getting back in.
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Your last paragraph doesn't quite add up. If EVERYONE who was anti-war voted for the Lib Dems, there would be no vote-splitting on the Left, because the majority of Britains(so we are told) are anti-war.
Plus, you say some otherwise anti-war Brits voted Labour because they didn't like the other parties' domestic policies. What this means is that they know that Tony Blair has involved their country in mass murder, but they're willing to vote for him because they like what he's doing on the domestic front. If maintaining Cool Britannia means having to keep up the rape and murder of innocent Iraqis, well, I guess that's a package that the average British peacenik is willing to buy.
Not to mention: how has Blair managed to maintain the party leadership for so long in a country with a supposed anti-war majority? Thatcher was brought down because some Tory bigwigs disagreed with her on Europe. But there isn't enough anti-war sentiment in the Labour Party to take out Blair? Kinda pathetic, considering that it's an officially left-wing party.
Basically, the average Brit is okay with being anti-war as long as it entails little more than screaming about how awful the Americans are. But when it comes to examining their own role in this moral calamity, and making decisions which might entail some form of sacrifice, well, that's just a bit too much to ask. Sorry if that sounds cynical, but I haven't observed anything about British behaviour since the war started to convince me otherwise. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:40 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:12 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Panic Button wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
I was wondering what people would come up with.
Juche! Good answer. Though, could there be a relationship with that and dependency theory. But I don't know which came first.
I don't know enough about eugenics to comment, so I'll take yer word for it.
I think the KKK has solid roots in Nazi ideology, and Caucasian racism before that (it isn't like the first white racists lived in Mississippi). I'm gonna chalk that one up as a gift from Germany and European hubris. Though I could be wrong. |
You are wrong......
Ku klux Klan membership from wikipedia:
year membership
1920 4,000,000
1930 30,000
1970 2,000
2000 3,000
The ku klux Klan is an American invention.
Bring on the accusations of me being anti-American for posting straight facts.... |
Yeah, you are right. America invented white racism. I must be mistaken.
Of course, the specific manifestation of European white racism that was the KKK was American, but lets not kid ourselves as to the origins of it. It was nothing more than idiot Americans copying idiot Europeans (who, by the way, based their entire foreign policy on the idea of while supremacy) and their racist dispositions.
And today, nothing has changed. Europe is leaning towards nationalistic socialism. If you change/delete a few letters there you may finally see the problem.
And these kind, humanistic Europeans... Where the Fu$k is Africa (which they screwed beyond repair) in their foreign policy. Still nothing more than a justification of 'white guilt'. How quickly they forget. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Regardless of the above discussions, the OP suggested that hostility towards Europe in America and hostility towards America in Europe were somehow comparable. This, clearly, is absurd.
So, if this small point from the hard-left is absurd, what can we make of them?
When all you have, in terms of a guiding metanarritive, is an "anti" you end up pathetic and quite silly.
This is why brits will talk so effortlessly about American imperialism without looking at the elephant in the living-room. Britain carved up a damn large chunk of this planet and has yet to atone for her sins - in any meaningful way -. They just left their colonies and went back to being rich and smug. And now these clowns criticise (non stop) the only country that has the balls to deal with the consequences. But the reason they criticise is that they are no longer in a position of power. They are nothing more than the slightly armed bitches of America. Good job girls.
I strongly disagree with many, many aspects of American foreign policy. But, they way that Europeans, and my fellow Canadians, go about criticizing the actions of the USA ignores the realities of the world that EUROPE left for them.
Damn near every problem in our sad world today, at bottom, is the fault of Europe. Once they admit that, I will take them seriously. Until then, I suggest Americans simply ignore them. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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They just left their colonies and went back to being rich and smug. And now these clowns criticise (non stop) the only country that has the balls to deal with the consequences. But the reason they criticise is that they are no longer in a position of power. They are nothing more than the slightly armed *beep* of America. Good job girls.
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I basically agree with this, except I don't think I would describe current US foreign policy, at least not in relation to Iraq and related issues, as "dealing with the consequences". At least not dealing with them in any helpful way. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
I was wondering what people would come up with.
Juche! Good answer. Though, could there be a relationship with that and dependency theory. But I don't know which came first.
I don't know enough about eugenics to comment, so I'll take yer word for it.
I think the KKK has solid roots in Nazi ideology, and Caucasian racism before that (it isn't like the first white racists lived in Mississippi). I'm gonna chalk that one up as a gift from Germany and European hubris. Though I could be wrong. |
I would say Juche is actually derivative of (continental European) socialism and you're mixing up centuries if you think the KKK is rooted in Nazi ideology. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| I would say Juche is actually derivative of (continental European) socialism and you're mixing up centuries if you think the KKK is rooted in Nazi ideology. |
Actually, I think the theoreticians of Juche claim to have transcended Marxism, and regard Juche as a separate ideology, rooted in but qualitatively different from European socialism. I'm prettys sure I read that somewhere.
Having said that, at least one aspect of the North Korean ideology seems to owe a fairly hefty debt to the dregs of European ideology. From the KCNA...
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Rodong Sinmun Censures Theory of "Multiracial Society"
Pyongyang, April 27 (KCNA) -- A strange farce to hamstring the essential characters of the Korean nation and seek for "multiracial society" is now being held in south Korea. In this regard Rodong Sinmun today runs a signed commentary, which censures the farce as an unpardonable bid to negate the homogeneity of the nation, make south Korea multiracial and Americanize it. To deny the peculiarity and advantages of the homogeneous nation now that dominationism and colonialism are posing a threat to the destiny of weak nations is a treacherous act of weakening the spirit of the nation, the commentary says, and goes on: The south Korean pro-American traitorous forces advocating the theory of "multiracial society" are riffraffs who have not an iota of national soul, to say nothing of the elementary understanding of the view on the nation and social and historic development.
If the homogeneity of the nation is not kept, the nation and the destiny of individuals cannot be defended from the U.S. dominationist moves and the attempt of the Japanese reactionaries for invasion of Korea, which is revealed in their claim to Tok Islet, cannot be checked.
The theory of "multiracial society" is a poison and anti-reunification logic aimed to emasculate the basic idea in the era of independent reunification. The anti-national logic is advocated in south Korea, contrary to the aspiration of the fellow countrymen. This is ascribable to the criminal attempt of the pro-American elements including the Grand National Party to make the north and the south different in lineages, block the June 15 era of reunification and seek the permanent division of the nation and the manipulation of the U.S. behind the scene.
The commentary calls upon the people from all walks of life in south Korea to decisively reject the anti-national moves of the sycophantic traitorous forces to tarnish the lineage of the Korean nation and obliterate it, bereft of the Juche character and national character.
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Last edited by On the other hand on Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Regardless of the above discussions, the OP suggested that hostility towards Europe in America and hostility towards America in Europe were somehow comparable. This, clearly, is absurd.
So, if this small point from the hard-left is absurd, what can we make of them?
When all you have, in terms of a guiding metanarritive, is an "anti" you end up pathetic and quite silly.
This is why brits will talk so effortlessly about American imperialism without looking at the elephant in the living-room. Britain carved up a damn large chunk of this planet and has yet to atone for her sins - in any meaningful way -. They just left their colonies and went back to being rich and smug. And now these clowns criticise (non stop) the only country that has the balls to deal with the consequences. But the reason they criticise is that they are no longer in a position of power. They are nothing more than the slightly armed *beep* of America. Good job girls.
I strongly disagree with many, many aspects of American foreign policy. But, they way that Europeans, and my fellow Canadians, go about criticizing the actions of the USA ignores the realities of the world that EUROPE left for them.
Damn near every problem in our sad world today, at bottom, is the fault of Europe. Once they admit that, I will take them seriously. Until then, I suggest Americans simply ignore them. |
A neat example of anti-Europeanism.
What gives you the idea that Europeans do not criticize their own past? And how do you propose we atone for it?
You also overlook the fact that European dominance ended in 1945, some might even say in 1918, so how long before America has to take some responsibility and Europeans have the right to criticize? |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Of course, the specific manifestation of European white racism that was the KKK was American, but lets not kid ourselves as to the origins of it. It was nothing more than idiot Americans copying idiot Europeans (who, by the way, based their entire foreign policy on the idea of while supremacy) and their racist dispositions. |
Tosh. They believed in their 'civilising mission' in the 19th century because people wanted more justification than just 'we do whatever the hell we want cos no-one can stop us'. Ideas of innate superiority were the next step.
Let's give American hegemony another 50 years and see if ideas of the innate superiority of American civilisation don't become popular too.
If you're going to blame the KKK on Europe then is every other idea and movement that ever happened in America due to European influence too? Including all the good ones? - cos it's only fair to give credit along with blame. That would be just as true, but now you can see it's only trivially true.
| BJWD wrote: |
| And today, nothing has changed. Europe is leaning towards nationalistic socialism. If you change/delete a few letters there you may finally see the problem. |
I agree nationalism and extremism are worrying problems (all over the world), but what makes you think nazis are going to gain control of Europe again?
| BJWD wrote: |
| And these kind, humanistic Europeans... Where the Fu$k is Africa (which they screwed beyond repair) in their foreign policy. Still nothing more than a justification of 'white guilt'. How quickly they forget. |
I agree Europe owes Africa and aid would be one good way to atone for the past. (If it can be ensured that aid and development money is used as intended.) |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:20 am Post subject: |
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I thought this poem would fit nicely here:
"This famous poem, written by Britain's imperial poet [Kipling], was a response to the American take over of the Phillipines after the Spanish-American War.
Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.
Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.
Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.
Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.
Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"
Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.
Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers! |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Continuing on Ya-ta Boy's literary tangent, here is Mark Twain's essay To The Person Sitting In Darkness. Twain argues that with the colonization of the Phillpines, the US had begun to play the "European game" in foreign relations.
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For, presently, came the Philippine temptation. It was strong; it was too strong, and he made that bad mistake: he played the European game, the Chamberlain game. It was a pity; it was a great pity, that error; that one grievous error, that irrevocable error. For it was the very place and time to play the American game again. And at no cost. Rich winnings to be gathered in, too; rich and permanent; indestructible; a fortune transmissible forever to the children of the flag. Not land, not money, not dominion -- no, something worth many times more than that dross: our share, the spectacle of a nation of long harassed and persecuted slaves set free through our influence; our posterity's share, the golden memory of that fair deed. The game was in our hands. If it had been played according to the American rules, Dewey would have sailed away from Manila as soon as he had destroyed the Spanish fleet -- after putting up a sign on shore guaranteeing foreign property and life against damage by the Filipinos, and warning the Powers that interference with the emancipated patriots would be regarded as an act unfriendly to the United States. The Powers cannot combine, in even a bad cause, and the sign would not have been molested.
Dewey could have gone about his affairs elsewhere, and left the competent Filipino army to starve out the little Spanish garrison and send it home, and the Filipino citizens to set up the form of government they might prefer, and deal with the friars and their doubtful acquisitions according to Filipino ideas of fairness and justice -- ideas which have since been tested and found to be of as high an order as any that prevail in Europe or America.
But we played the Chamberlain game, and lost the chance to add another Cuba and another honorable deed to our good record.
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http://www.boondocksnet.com/ai/twain/persit.html |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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