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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: Optimism vs Pessimism |
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liberalism because it is an innately pessimistic worldview |
xingiman posted that comment on another thread. It struck me as interesting.
I have always thought the opposite. To me, a liberal has a possibly inaccurate view that humanity can be 'improved' or 'perfected' and is therefore optimistic. Pie in the sky stuff.
Conservatives, to me are more critical (even cynical) about human nature: people are basically flawed and won't ever change. Stop worrying about what could be and get busy dealing with the way things are. And yes, we do keep score by how many toys you have.
Anyone else have a thought to share? |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Bah, if you were Canadian, you'd understand that liberals and conservatives are equally pathetic. |
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Bulsajo

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone else have a thought to share? |
Do you believe that people are innately good, and that law and government is only to protect the many against those few who stray?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rousseau
Or do you believe that people are inherently greedy and evil, and without law and order we would all descend into chaos?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbes |
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Moldy Rutabaga

Joined: 01 Jul 2003 Location: Ansan, Korea
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Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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They are both problematic political philisophies, and are to an extent industrial names that no longer really fit a globalized world.
I say problematic because what's a conservative? Someone who holds on to the old ways. But Canadian conservatives don't advocate loyalty to the king-- conservatism just seems to be favoring whatever was the case fifty years ago.
And liberals, in theory, advocate laissez-faire government which is 'liberal' in leaving people alone and having minimal control over people's lives-- but this doesn't sound much like big-government, politically-correct liberals nowadays.
To me what is needed is better descriptions of political parties. A party may be global-thinking economically and reactionary in justice issues-- or the reverse-- and conservative and liberal governments aren't always very different from each other.
Ken:> |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: Optimism vs Pessimism |
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Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
To me, a liberal has a possibly inaccurate view that humanity can be 'improved' or 'perfected' and is therefore optimistic. Pie in the sky stuff.
Conservatives, to me are more critical (even cynical) about human nature: people are basically flawed and won't ever change. Stop worrying about what could be and get busy dealing with the way things are. And yes, we do keep score by how many toys you have.
Anyone else have a thought to share? |
You are right, at least in the American context, and at least in the basic outlines of the two positions. |
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Bronski

Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Is this about liberalism and conservatism in theory or people who call themselves liberals and conservatives? Also, there are people who are socially conservative and economically liberal or socially liberal and economically conservative, etc and so forth. People like to choose sides, but it's more complicated than that. I think accusing people of being pessimistic is often an attempt to try to shut them up when they say something you disagree with.
Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I have always thought the opposite. To me, a liberal has a possibly inaccurate view that humanity can be 'improved' or 'perfected' and is therefore optimistic. Pie in the sky stuff.
Conservatives, to me are more critical (even cynical) about human nature: people are basically flawed and won't ever change. Stop worrying about what could be and get busy dealing with the way things are. And yes, we do keep score by how many toys you have. |
According to this description I'm conservative. Though I tend to vote for and support democrats. So what does that mean? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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I was really asking if there is a connection between the general personality traits of optimism/pessimism and a person's political view (while knowing that most people inherit their political views along with their eye color).
I was hoping people would stay on the theme of the original quotation that I cited from another thread. |
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Moldy Rutabaga

Joined: 01 Jul 2003 Location: Ansan, Korea
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:59 am Post subject: |
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I am not sure if an optimist or a pessimist is necessarily any political persuasion. They overlap either party, I would think.
But yes, I think an idealist (dreamer?) would tend to be more liberal and a realist (cynic?) more conservative. I am not saying one or the other is good or bad, only that these are probably general tendencies.
Ken:> |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Rteacher

Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA
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Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 3:06 am Post subject: |
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I think liberals have traditionally been more optimistic in the sense that they have been more amenable to extending opportunities for material advancement to lower classes and minorities. Conservatives have been more pessimistic about giving more power to underclasses. Of course, it's not necessarily clear that this is a function of different assessments of human nature - or simply different levels of greed and protectionism (of personal - and extended personal - wealth...) |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 3:25 am Post subject: |
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I wish xingiman would show up and explain what he meant in his original statement. |
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cerulean808

Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: |
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xingiman
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liberalism because it is an innately pessimistic worldview |
Ya-ta Boy
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To me, a liberal has a possibly inaccurate view that humanity can be 'improved' or 'perfected' and is therefore optimistic. Pie in the sky stuff. |
I don't think there is a disagreement here about the liberal view of human nature.
There are two different meanings of liberal being used. The one xingiman is probably refering to is the 18 - 19th C philosophy exhumed from its tomb and successfully imposed on Western democracies in the last few decades of the 20th C by the neoconservatives. Everyone's familiar with it; unregulated markets, unrestricted flow of international capital, minimal national government, removal of the welfare safety net, 'Devil take the hind most', etc. These proponents have a cynical view of human nature - individuals being rational animals act only in their self interest.
The second use of liberal refers to the political force that has successfully pushed the emancipatory projects of the last century or so eg women's franchise, decriminalisation of homosexuality, free universal education, labour standards. The humanist philosophy underpinning this force is optimistic about human nature so far as it claims we have the ability to improve ourselves and make our societies more just and humane. |
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