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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 4:08 am Post subject: The Immigration Issue |
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I started a new thread to move from the day of boycott to the issue in general. I'm also borrowing off a thread posted in Off-Topic, since I think this is a more appropriate place to discuss the issue.
Honestly, I hold little vested interest in illegal immigration, one way or the other. I'm not really bothered by the status quo. Of course, people dying in various ways because of how they're smuggled is disturbing. However, the actual presence of illegal immigrants seems mutually beneficial to me.
Reading over relevant discussion of there being "Jobs Americans won't do", it seems that, by and large, there are no such jobs. I will note though, where I come from, Mexicans are primarily hired to pick cabbage. Anyone who's smelt a cabbage field might understand why this is a less-than-desireable job. It's also seasonal. Nevertheless, it is fair to guess that the cabbage farms also hire Mexicans because they get them below the minimum wage.
Then there comes the argument that there are "jobs Americans won't do at that price". I think this is a better, more refined argument.
Mind you, type "Jobs Americans won't do" into google and you'll have a gaggle of conservative sites with people assailing this "myth".
In reading them, they note a couple of things:
1) When migrants were forced out of the tomato industry, the industry adapted by automating tomato harvesting.
Flip side: Which also means that eliminating migrant tomato-pickers didn't create jobs for Americans.
2) They note that illegals only make up 4% of our labor force.
Flip-side: Fair enough, but 4% could also be considered a significant part of the labor force. It's a matter of how you see it.
3) They note that the prices of produce would
rise from $7 a pound to $10.
Flip side: That's a 30% increase. It also assumes that those in the produce industry will only raise prices by the amount needed (and here, I assume, the assumption is that all produce can be handled the way tomatoes were) and not jack prices for a profit (a la the oil industry).
4) Moving beyond produce, another site suggests that the light manufacturing industry would be hit the hardest. In particular, apparel and rug-manufacturers would likely move their businesses overseas as opposed to hiring Americans at proper wages.
Again, jobs are not necessarily being created for Americans.
5) Why, of all people, is Bush backing this initiative against his base?
a) the Hispanic vote is gaining influence
b)illegal migrants/immigrants are helping businesses work on the cheap, just like the myriad of overseas factories allow us to keep profits high and expenses low
6) This issue has been around for a long, long time. It's interesting to see people get fired up about it. Maybe it's my own bias, but I see it as conservative against conservative.
We have the "patriotic" lobby demonizing these people against the "cheap labor" lobby trying to make it OK.
7) And I detect "bitterness" and contempt along ethnic/economic lines.
By and large, "haves" looking down on "have-not's".
It's skewing judgements towards "extremism" and one-sidedness.
Objectivity is lost.
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Most i feel are naturally supportive of immigration, provided of course it's done by the book ( i.e. "LEGAL" )
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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7) And I detect "bitterness" and contempt along ethnic/economic lines.
By and large, "haves" looking down on "have-not's".
It's skewing judgements towards "extremism" and one-sidedness.
Objectivity is lost.
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To me, this is the most disturbing part of the issue, because behind the bitterness and contempt is fear. There has been a demogogery to it since the topic became nightly fodder on Fox. I was home last year and what I think I saw was Fox pushing the threat of terrorists sneaking over the border with the economic illegal aliens, combining two separate issues. An effective tactic, it seems.
Once people's fears are aroused, you can pretty much forget any objectivity.
I can't help but think that if these 10-12 million illegal aliens were from Sweden, Scotland, Denmark and Germany, there would be no real issue. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I can't help but think that if these 10-12 million illegal aliens were from Sweden, Scotland, Denmark and Germany, there would be no real issue. |
Which is precisely why it's NOT an issue. People from these countries, for the most part, don't feel like they have some God-given right to invade the U.S. illegally while people from Latin America seemingly do. |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Well not to be to out there but the US has invaded most Latin American countries over the course of its history so maybe people have a point? |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I can't help but think that if these 10-12 million illegal aliens were from Sweden, Scotland, Denmark and Germany, there would be no real issue. |
Which is precisely why it's NOT an issue. People from these countries, for the most part, don't feel like they have some God-given right to invade the U.S. illegally while people from Latin America seemingly do. |
Close, but for "people from Latin America" it would be a case of going somewhere better whereas, arguably, for the others it would not. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I can't help but think that if these 10-12 million illegal aliens were from Sweden, Scotland, Denmark and Germany, there would be no real issue. |
Which is precisely why it's NOT an issue. People from these countries, for the most part, don't feel like they have some God-given right to invade the U.S. illegally while people from Latin America seemingly do. |
Close, but for "people from Latin America" it would be a case of going somewhere better whereas, arguably, for the others it would not. |
That's right.
The Swedes, British, Danes, and Germans for the most part keep their own houses in order. (This is not to suggest that these European societies are perfect -- which, of course, none of our socieites are.) Latin Americans, however, do not. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:39 am Post subject: |
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This has been suggested many times before: enforce the laws requiring employers to hire legals and pay at least minimum wage, thereby removing the incentive for employers to hire illegals, and thereby removing people's incentive to become illegals.
It seems like an effective solution people from all parts of the political spectrum ought to be able to get behind.
It won't solve the problem overnight but then nothing will. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 12:39 am Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
This has been suggested many times before: enforce the laws requiring employers to hire legals and pay at least minimum wage, thereby removing the incentive for employers to hire illegals, and thereby removing people's incentive to become illegals.
It seems like an effective solution people from all parts of the political spectrum ought to be able to get behind.
It won't solve the problem overnight but then nothing will. |
One uncomfortable aspect of this is the number of illegals hired for domestic help. While it might be fair to police businesses more closely, I for one, wouldn't be willing to allow civil liberties to be curbed by snooping for illegals.
All of the "invasion" talk is angry and one-sided. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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