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KOD
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
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 Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 7:57 pm Post subject: Grammar Gurus Hlp Plz |
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How can I explain to someone that:
"He misses being with people" and "He misses not being with people" have the same meaning? And more importantly, how can I answer the question "Why..."?
Last edited by KOD on Tue May 09, 2006 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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identity
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| they don't have the same meaning. the first implies loneliness, the second, agoraphobia. |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| like Identity said, they have exactly the opposite meaning. |
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KOD
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm...
He is not with people.
He misses people.
He misses not being with people.
I was with you.
Now, I am not with you.
I miss you.
I miss not being with you.
I miss being with you, and I miss not being with you DO have the same meaning in this context, no? |
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ilovebdt
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Location: Nr Seoul
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| KOD wrote: |
Hmmm...
He is not with people.
He misses people.
He misses not being with people.
I was with you.
Now, I am not with you.
I miss you.
I miss not being with you.
I miss being with you, and I miss not being with you DO have the same meaning in this context, no? |
Yes, they do mean the same thing. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| KOD wrote: |
Hmmm...
He is not with people.
He misses people.
He misses not being with people. |
Shouldn't that be "He misses being with people"?
You wouldn't say, "I miss not having her around", "I miss not having my favourite beer", etc. You'd say, "I hate not having her around" or "I miss my favourite beer", no?
(no, I'm not a grammarian. and yes, it was my name in the thread title that brought me here) |
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jmbran11
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: The grammar is different |
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"I was with you.
Now, I am not with you.
I miss you.
I miss not being with you. "
The last line is incorrect; it should read, "I miss being with you."
Though your expression may mean the same thing (and be understood by all of us), the grammar doesn't express the same thing.
That's why you can't explain it to your students.
E.g. - I may say "I miss not seeing my family," but what I mean is "I miss seeing my family."
Compare with "I miss not being in Korea" (i.e. I miss living somewhere else). |
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KOD
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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No, I wouldn't say, "I miss my favourite beer."
If I used to have my favorite beer every evening, but now I can't have it anymore and I missed it, I would say, "I miss not having my favorite beer".
The usage is common, but I find it impossible to explain why.
How can I explain that:
I miss having my favorite beer, and I miss not having my favorite beer have the same meaning? |
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Universalis
Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar Gurus Hlp Plz |
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| KOD wrote: |
How can I explain to someone that:
"He misses being with people" and "He misses not being with people" have the same meaning? And more importantly, how can I answer the question "Why..."? |
Just rephrase the sentences...
"The prisoner in solitary confinement misses interacting with people."
"Surrounded by kids all day, the clown misses not interacting with people."
Brian |
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KOD
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, certainly context has an effect on the meaning...but still hoping for a better answer as my students will miss NOT HAVING a logical explanation to their grammar question. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't see any way those sentences can mean the same thing if read literally. Perhaps this is a regionalism? Where are you from? |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ilovebdt wrote: |
| KOD wrote: |
Hmmm...
He is not with people.
He misses people.
He misses not being with people.
I was with you.
Now, I am not with you.
I miss you.
I miss not being with you.
I miss being with you, and I miss not being with you DO have the same meaning in this context, no? |
Yes, they do mean the same thing. |
Eh? They seem opposite to me.
I miss not being with you. (You son of a bitch.)
I miss not being with my insane brother. (Because I am staying at his place.)
It seems to me I have heard the "I miss not being with you." being used as a colloquialism, but I think grammatically it's dead wrong.
Here are some examples I found online:
| Quote: |
Kitschy Romance Site
To The Hearts Who Miss Not Being Alone..
Anorexia Website
I miss not thinking abut food twewnty four hours a day!!
...i miss not having a feeling like i'm hiding something from someone .... even friends and family
I miss not comparing myself with friends
I miss not thinking about my body weight and size every sec of the day
Essay on what you miss after going deaf
While I don't care much for the phone and never did, I do miss not being able to use it easily when I want or need to do... |
In the first five examples, you would clearly not have sentences with the same meaning if you remove the not. However, the last example is representative of the quirky being with you/not being with you conundrum.
It's my guess that this is less a matter that a relevant grammar citation will resolve and more a matter of proper style and usage. I feel quite deeply that William Strunk and George Orwell would grind their teeth over not being with you due to its illogic, awkwardness and the simple fact that it makes the phrase even one word longer than it need be.
But in common usage, it's like trying to get people to stop saying try and not be late: it's dead wrong, but it's been absorbed and assimilated and that's that. |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| I don't see any way those sentences can mean the same thing if read literally. Perhaps this is a regionalism? Where are you from? |
yeah, i'm puzzled by this. in what part of the world do people talk in this crazy way? |
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plattwaz
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Location: <Write something dumb here>
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Saying "He misses not being with people" means that there was a time when he was isolated, had no people around, and was alone. He enjoyed that time. Now, there are people around, and he is not isolated and alone anymore. He longs for the days when he was alone.
It's similar to a double negative, and has the exact opposite meaning of "He misses being with people." |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| KOD wrote: |
Hmmm...
He is not with people.
He misses people.
He misses not being with people.
I was with you.
Now, I am not with you.
I miss you.
I miss not being with you.
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I just don't read that at all as synonymous with "I miss being with you". It's a bit like people who use "nonplussed" to mean "not disturbed by something" when in fact the word means the exact opposite. If you keep using it improperly, people will come to understand it in the improper use. Or maybe more apropos how people use a double negative ("I don't have no one in my life!"). We get the meaning and in some circles a double negative is common. However, that doesn't make it grammatically correct.
I would use the construct as follows:
I was alone in Korea.
In Canada I'm surrounded by friends.
I miss not being with people.
I miss the solitary life in Korea.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Tue May 09, 2006 9:52 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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