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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for both articles , insightful and challenging, even if I disagree with many things.
I disagree that "democracy" should be promoted. This is a value ladened term. America and all "good " nations, should be promoting, "good government" and basic respect for human rights and needs. Guardians of the earth and "doing the right thing." [also at home!!!].............That is why it is so ironic that the US. is so self interested and stands outside of international law, so hypocritical.
No other people believe in America precisely because she gives with one hand and hits with the other. Utterly dishonest, shallow --- not just a bully as the article alleges. Promoting "good government" is not about speeches and polemics and spin. It is about the reality that happens on the ground. International organizations can attest to a country's good governence and US. foreign policy should be geared to that and nothing more...............except for the notion of PEACE , meaning dialogue with others and respecting differences.
I also think that promoting "good government" means, refusing to deal with corrupt, nonpeople's governements - economically. I find it so distasteful how the US cries about the evils of the world but still sells arms all over the place, still has a business as usual with anyone attitude. Sickening to find that they press for trade sanctions only where they don't have any economic interest! A farce and they can only become America the strong again if they put their wallet where their mouth is........
DD |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| But please be sure you're not painting the rest of the world so virtuous or deserving. Some are thugs. |
Sorry to leave that impression or you read that into my reply. I was only discussing the U.S.A. As for the rest of the world, MOST are thugs.
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| Calling the U.S. a bully, or worse, lambasting it for "not doing the right thing" is too simplistic and ignores the good things about U.S. foreign policy. |
America gets my attention because of its size, economic strength (and thus, ability to do good!!!). It does many good things and I applaud them for it -- especially in the realm of foreign aid and disaster assistance. They also support many organizations of countries seeking to fight their own corrupt/vile governments (ex. foundation for democracy in Iran , ) but unfortunately use these for their own ends in many cases.
Unfortunately America falls short in supporting internationally, issues which are seen by the rest of the world as "common sense". This is because America too often as an overtly economic foreign policy. It is a foreign policy run by GE and Proctor and Gamble, not "the right thing". world Trade issues, journalist organizations/freedom of the press, labour standards, arms embargoes, geneva convention, world court, global warming, to name just a few....
But America has to be lambasted for not doing the right thing precisely because with their territory comes the responsibility and precisely because of their rhetoric, they set themselves up for this. I'd much prefer a more silent benevolence by the U.S. but unfortunately whatever they do, they do with the flag and bravado.....
DD |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Secondly, and hardly less significantly, unlike nearly all other nation-states, the United States declassifies and publishes secret documents, has a free and at times very much oppositionist press and academic freedom (university presses and academic journals, which at many times take oppositionist positions, among many other things), constantly holds open and public hearings and investigations and criticizes itself (usually from one partisan perspective or another, that is, from an oppositionist position), and generally, tells everyone what it has done and what it is doing via public airings like the State of the Union Address, which is usually broadcast and commented on (and criticized at home and abroad by oppositionists) all over the globe. |
I agree with your first and last part but TOTALLY disagree with this above. Appearances, appearances, appearances -- meanwhile the wife is a drug addict, the father is screwin the maid and the son is plotting how to shoot up his school. Still the grass outside the house is bright green and trimmed. Keep believing in this myth. What is hidden in America is scary. I won't even attempt a critique of your statement, why try to prove the earth is round to one who , because he walks every day, thinks it must be flat.
DD |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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agree with your first and last part but TOTALLY disagree with this above. Appearances, appearances, appearances -- meanwhile the wife is a drug addict, the father is screwin the maid and the son is plotting how to shoot up his school. Still the grass outside the house is bright green and trimmed. Keep believing in this myth. What is hidden in America is scary. I won't even attempt a critique of your statement, why try to prove the earth is round to one who , because he walks every day, thinks it must be flat.
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Okay, so the dog is screwing the maid and the kid is shootin' up junk. But if you could put the 1950s anti-conformist rant aside for a second, do you deny that...
1. American university presses and academic journals often take an oppositional stance, and...
2. The American state has a better record than most when it comes to declassification of documents?
I'm not 100% sure that Gopher was right either, but I'd like to hear a more substantial rebuttal than a beatnik prose poem.
For the record, I studied at a Canadian university, and was at one time an avid reader of academic oriented publications, many from the US. And yes, I would say that Gopher's characterization of the academic press was not entirely inaccurate. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| And the last I checked, a large number of professors are still requiring undergrads to read Zinn. |
I met a kid in Florida about 12 years ago whose Social Studies class was learning about Malcolm X. Not that that's necessarily the be-all-and-end-all of American high school social studies, but it does go to show that a critical approach is not unheard of, even at that level. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| And the last I checked, a large number of professors are still requiring undergrads to read Zinn. |
And most scholars who take a left-wing approach to Korean issues will reference Bruce Cumings. To the point, apparently, where during the 1987 protests against Chun Doo Hwan, the US State Department thought they could quell anti-American sentiment in South Korea by getting Cumings to go on Korean radio and say that the protestors had misunderstood his work. Cumings turned down the request. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 3:12 am Post subject: ... |
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The U.S. is not without problems, just as the Israeli's article is not without merit.
But please be sure you're not painting the rest of the world so virtuous or deserving. Some are churls; others are thugs. Quite more than a few are barely anything more than fire worshippers, so to speak. |
And here is the crux of what I disagree with. I don't see the Isreali or most anyone painting the rest of the world as virtuous in their criticism of the US.
Likewise, the behavior of the rest of the world shouldn't mitigate its own behavior. Should it?
To suggest going back to the Monroe Doctrine or Wisonian isolationism is a step too far.
It could avoid unilateralism and embrace multilateralism, rather than exploit it, which I feel is what's largely happening now.
Just a month before 9/11, there was a front-page IHT article titled "Should the US behave as an Empire?" It shocked me to see this in the IHT.
The US has a clear opportunity to lead by consensus. To become, if you will, an example of anti-empire.
And when one talks about money as compared to democracy, it's not just about the Marshall plan. It's about dealing with China. It looks bad when you're trying to spread democracy here and financing communism there.
But thanks for the article Goph. I behind you 100% in what you say about Costa Rica.
And, hey, I think this is a good discussion! |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 8:34 am Post subject: |
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To suggest going back to the Monroe Doctrine or Wisonian isolationism is a step too far.
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Actually, what he advocated was rejecting Wilsonian internationalism and embracing the Monroe Doctrine. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: |
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I think we all agreed on page 1 that promoting democracy in Iraq is problematic, but no one as far as I could tell has come up with any acceptable alternatives which stand a reasonable chance of success.
Further to that line of debate, Ddeubel, you seem to be outright rejecting the policy/ideology of promoting democracy in general, so again I wonder what the alternatives are?
Everything else seems to me to be an excuse to slide either into non-interventionist isolationism or Kirkpatrick-esque ultra-realism.
Promoting Democracy maybe problematic, but is it any more problematic than not promoting it?
And if it's really a case of cleaning up your own act first, then no country truly has legitimacy to promote democracy or good government and by default we have chaotic 'everything is relative' isolationism as well as Macchavellian ultra-realist interventionism solely based on self-interest, do we not?
It's that old clich�: Democracy is a crappy way to run a country, but it's still the best we've got. We could add an addendum- and pushing Democracy sucks but it's still better than anything else. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:58 pm; edited 7 times in total |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Bulsajo, a Candian, appears to have embraced, with or without reservations, but embraced nonetheless. |
IMO, It's to the benefit of all that the US live up to the lofty goals it has set for itself. That doesn't mean giving any US administration a pass to overlook abuses and mistakes, but I think it should mean that in many cases they're given the benefit of the doubt, which rarely happens.
There are many who automatically assume the worst about the US, its methods and its goals, and that's just not right.
But when there's someone like Bush in the White House, it's pretty hard to say these things... |
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