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patchy
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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 Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 1:43 am Post subject: |
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lastat06513 wrote:
If the US was to give China free rein over Taiwan, this including taking the island by force, I feel the chinese would gladly hand over North korea to the Americans.
I guess you can call it an even swap.
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Taiwan's president was another Friendly Dictator:
CHIANG KAI-SHEK
President of Taiwan
The Chinese civil war pitted Mao Tse-Tung's Communists against Chiang Kai-Shek's Nationalists. The U.S. backed Chiang, but when he coudn't do the job they also supported Japanese troops fighting the Communists, even before WW II had ended.
Hated for his wanton cruelty, corruption, and decadence, Chiang did not enjoy the support of the Chinese people; entire divisions of the Nationalist army defected, so on a few occasions, Chiang hired gangsters to get rid of leftist elements. Nevertheless, Chiang was defeated and fled to the island of Formosa (Taiwan).
A presidential commission appointed by Harry Truman reported after Chiang's arrival there that his forces "ruthlessly, corruptly, and avariciously imposed their regime" on the population. Under Nationalist rule, 85% of the population was disenfranchised, but the onset of the Korean War and the anti-communist hysteria of the McCarthy era led the U.S. to declare that the tiny island represented the real government of China.
The U.S. was crucial in keeping mainland China out of the U.N. until 1971.
Chiang gave the World Anti-Communist League, an international organization with links to Nazis, drug smugglers and the CIA, its first home, permitting WACL members to use a military academy there to train troops for Latin American military coups.
President Carter tried to cut U.S. ties to WACL, but Ronald Reagan received campaign funds from the group and WACL became involved with training and supplying contras in Argentina and Taiwan.
Chiang Kai-Shek died in 1975, but many of his policies continue in Taiwan.
http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Asia.html#Card%2017
Last edited by patchy on Tue May 16, 2006 8:44 am; edited 2 times in total |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| So a socialist country, Norway, has beaten Iceland, a capitalist welfare state in wealth (GDP per capita). It seems like the DPRK had the right idea all along. |
Norway and Iceland are both mixed economies that allow private enterprise, but which also have significant welfare support. North Korea is a centrally planned economy where private enterprise has been banned. That is, along with economic sanctions, a major reason for the economic stagnation of that country, which you continue to ignore. In all Scandinavian countries, one can own property, start a business, and become very wealthy, although the tax rate is indeed high. Thus, there exists an incentive system that boosts production and stimulates innovation, which does not exist in North Korea.
Without the economic sanctions and military spending, North Korea would obviously be better off, but it would not be like Iceland, although it might resemble Soviet era Poland. |
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patchy
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 1:51 am Post subject: |
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And yet another Friendly Dictator:
PARK CHUNG HEE
President of South Korea
Free and open expression has not come easily to South Koreans. Beatings, torture and execution of the regime's political opponents have been a way of life since the Korean War. The tenure of former President Park Chung Hee, who came to power in a 1961 military coup, exemplifies the kind of leader South Koreans have been forced to endure.
Park's virulent anti-communism won him U.S. support, although Article Ten of his Anti-Communist law provided for prize-money to be awarded "to a person who has inevitably killed an offender [of the Law] or has forced an offender to commit suicide."
The water torture, which leaves no physical marks on the victim, was a favored technique of Park's security forces. Cold water was forced up the nostrils through a tube while a cloth was placed in the victim's mouth to prevent breathing.
Many anti-communist "interrogations" were run by the KCIA, a U.S. creation modeled after the American CIA. One victim told Amnesty International, "I was taken to KCIA headquarters, my hands tied together, and I was tied to a chair. I was not allowed to have any sleep. At night, they would drag me to the basement where they would beat me with a long, heavy stick, and jump on me. They were trying to make me confess that I was a spy."
Despite such brutal behavior, the U.S. has maintained a first-rate strategic relationship with South Korea, providing successive repressive regimes with extensive U.S. aid. Park Chung Hee was assassinated by the KCIA in 1979, but South Korea is still a nation troubled by lack of human rights.
http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Asia.html#Card%2017
Last edited by patchy on Sat May 13, 2006 1:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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patchy
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| So a socialist country, Norway, has beaten Iceland, a capitalist welfare state in wealth (GDP per capita). It seems like the DPRK had the right idea all along. |
Norway and Iceland are both mixed economies that allow private enterprise, but which also have significant welfare support. North Korea is a centrally planned economy where private enterprise has been banned. That is, along with economic sanctions, a major reason for the economic stagnation of that country, which you continue to ignore. In all Scandinavian countries, one can own property, start a business, and become very wealthy, although the tax rate is indeed high. Thus, there exists an incentive system that boosts production and stimulates innovation, which does not exist in North Korea.
Without the economic sanctions and military spending, North Korea would obviously be better off, but it would not be like Iceland, although it might resemble Soviet era Poland. |
The USA also tried to bring down the USSR, just like it did the DPRK. The USSR and satellite states suffered economically because of the cold war it fought with the US.
No country is completely socialist, bigverne, nor for that matter, completely capitalist. |
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patchy
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
AS for Patchy! A troll I assume. If not a troll someone who is not very well educated.
I do not mind the anti-U.S. rhetoric but at least use facts not imagination.
Example ; The U.S. bombed North Korean guerillas prior to 1942. What planes would the U.s. had in the pacific to bomb them with. Their was the flying tiger group in Yunnan but that is a very long way from Manchuria. So this event could not have occured. |
"The Chinese civil war pitted Mao Tse-Tung's Communists against Chiang Kai-Shek's Nationalists. The U.S. backed Chiang, but when he coudn't do the job they also supported Japanese troops fighting the Communists, even before WW II had ended."
From: http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Asia.html#Card%2017 |
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patchy
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
I know you'll come back with more tripe, but seriously, who benefits by the system there? Today? It would be an exclusive list, to be sure (and admittedly not all are in North Korea). Are the average folks on that list? NO. Thats why it needs to change. How?
Any means short of war. There are many problem spots in the world, but not too many that have nukes and constantly rattle their sabers while engaging in various illegal activities.
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America supported the illegal activities of the dictators it supported, including drug trafficking. There are too many examples to show them all. Here is just one of them:
" GENERAL HUMBERTO BRANCO
President of Brazil
In 1961, Time magazine called Brazil's domestic politics "confused" and said the country was "also adrift in foreign affairs". What Time seemed to mean was that Brazilian President Jaao Goulart's policies were unacceptable to the U.S. Goulart sought to trade with communist nations, supported the labor movement, and had limited the profits muftinationals could take out of the country. Although high ranking U.S. intelligence personnel such as Defense Attache (and later Deputy Director of the CIA) Vernon Walters, deny the U.S. took part in the 1964 overthrow of Goulart by General Humberto de Alencar Castello Branco, there is evidence to the contrary. For example, right before the coup, U.S. officials cabled Washington a request for oil for Branco's soldiers in case Goulart's troops blew up the refineries.
Branco's regime was short but brutal. Labor unions were banned, criticism of the President became unlawful, and thousands of "suspected communists" (including children) were arrested and tortured. As in Paraguay, Argentina, and Bolivia (see cards 12, 8, and 6), land was stolen from native Indians and their culture was destroyed. Drug dealers, many of them government officials, were given protection because they maintained "national security interests". Brazil formed ties with WACL and assisted General Videla in his takeover of Argentina. When Branco stepped down in 1967, he left behind a constitution with greatly increased military and executve powers, crippling Brazil's efforts to restore democracy."
Last edited by patchy on Sat May 13, 2006 5:27 am; edited 3 times in total |
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patchy
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
Natural disasters did not lead to starvation in the north the collapse of the USSR and the loss of the money from the Russians led to starvation in the North. Of course the north blames it on farmers who tried to feed their families. The scum attempt to criminalize those that they abuse the most. This is most typical of Stalinist states atttack the weak and defenseless, blame them for the failures of the state. No evidence of much of a balck market in the North. The society is simply policed to diligently. Not holding pure thoughts about the "DEAR LEADER" was the cause. Strange that the millitary did not starve. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED TO BLAME THE VICTIMS OF THAT VILE REGIME FOR WHAT WAS DONE TO THEM!
So Patchy study up my son!
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Privatization of the food distribution system, a movement which had been undergoing for some time in NK, even back in Kim Il Sung's day, was one of the major causes of the famine:
http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr990802.html
"The rise of farmer's markets and the shutdown of the public distribution system for the nonfarm population made food inaccessible to families that had no way of paying higher prices, particularly when the economic downturn reduced the purchasing power of families. As industrial production plummeted, salaries of urban and mining workers were either reduced or stopped entirely, as was the heavily subsidized food from the public distribution system on which these workers had relied for 50 years. The public distribution system was not a social service system, but a means of workforce compensation. The nonsubsidized price in the farmer's markets for a kilogram of maize (not enough to feed a family for a day) equaled an average industrial worker's monthly salary, while under the subsidized rate a month's industrial salary easily bought the maximum ration allowed through the public distribution system. Thus, these urban families sustained a major reduction in family purchasing power at the same time the price of food increased exponentially.
According to a Johns Hopkins University study of 440 refugees, 39 percent of the people in the far northern region of North Hamgyong province rely on farmer's markets as their principal source of food (through either barter or cash purchases), while only 5.7 percent rely on the public distribution system ("Rising Mortality in North Korean Households Reported by Migrants to China" by W. Courtland Robinson, Myung Ken Lee, Kenneth Hill, and Gilbert Burnham, Lancet, July 1999). Surveys by the Korean Buddhist Sharing Movement (KBSM), a South Korean NGO working in the North Korean-Chinese border area, show a similar shift from the public distribution system to markets in other provinces. A Republic of Korea (ROK) Unification Ministry study using defector information indicates that there are 300-350 farmer's markets in North Korea and that people get approximately 60-70 percent of their food from them.
The phenomenal increase in the frequency, selection of products, and size of these markets over the past four years has been noted by United Nations (UN) and NGO workers. Kim Jong Il has publicly attacked these markets as unsocialist (December 1996). He tried to shut these markets down after his father's death but was forced to rescind the order because of urban unrest (defector interview, September 1998). He tolerates them now because they are essential to the survival of the cities. His father, Kim Il Sung, had wisely sanctioned the farmer's markets, saying that they would exist one way or the other and that it was better to have them out in the open so they could be regulated, though it is clear even Kim Il Sung never envisioned that these markets would become this large and essential (Kim Il Sung, "On Some Theoretical Problems of the Socialist Economy," March 1969). Without these markets, the urban areas would be even more depopulated than they are now. The rise of these farmer's markets amounts to a de facto privatization of an important part of what remains of the North Korean economy. The regime's embarrassment may be one reason why officials have prohibited any expatriate visits to observe these markets or to study food prices in them.
The people who have died in the famine or who have suffered the most deprivation are those who were unable to adjust to the economic reality of these new markets either by growing their own food or by producing some marketable product, labor, or service that they could exchange for food." |
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patchy
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
Natural disasters did not lead to starvation in the north the collapse of the USSR and the loss of the money from the Russians led to starvation in the North. Of course the north blames it on farmers who tried to feed their families. The scum attempt to criminalize those that they abuse the most. This is most typical of Stalinist states atttack the weak and defenseless, blame them for the failures of the state. No evidence of much of a balck market in the North. The society is simply policed to diligently. Not holding pure thoughts about the "DEAR LEADER" was the cause. Strange that the millitary did not starve. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED TO BLAME THE VICTIMS OF THAT VILE REGIME FOR WHAT WAS DONE TO THEM!
So Patchy study up my son!
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http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/111703_korea_cuba_1.html
" Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russian imports fell by 90%. By 1996, oil imports amounted to only 40 percent of the 1990 level.4 DPRK tried to look to China for the bulk of its oil needs. However, China sought to distance itself economically from DPRK by announcing that all commerce with DPRK would be settled in hard currency beginning in 1993. China also cut its shipments of �friendship grain� from 800,000 tons in 1993 to 300,000 tons in 1994.5
On top of the loss of oil and natural gas imports, DPRK suffered a series of natural disasters in the mid-1990s that acted to further debilitate an already crippled system. The years 1995 and 1996 saw severe flooding that washed away vital topsoil, destroyed infrastructure, damaged and silted hydroelectric dams, and flooded coal mine shafts rendering them unproductive. In 1997, this flooding was followed by severe drought and a massive tsunami. Lack of energy resources prevented them from preparing for these disasters and hampered recovery.
DPRK also suffered from aging infrastructure. Much of their machinery and many of their industrial plants were ready for retirement by the 1990s. Because DPRK had defaulted on an enormous debt some years earlier, they had grave difficulty attracting the necessary foreign investment. The dissolution of the Soviet Union meant that DPRK could no longer obtain the spare parts and expertise to refurbish their infrastructure, leading to the failure of machinery, generators, turbines, transformers and transmission lines. DPRK entered into a vicious positive feedback loop, as failing infrastructure cut coal and hydroelectric production and diminished their ability to transport energy via power lines, truck and rail." |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Patchy
Good articles about the U.S. a. supporting bad guys.
But how does this relate to the North Koreans. The U.s. has done bad things so that makes the North korean regime good
That is a strange logic
But then i doubt you really care about North Korea or its enslaved citizens you are just angry at the U.S.
As I stated before puberty is tough!
Also Patchy before you write more about the Chinese war with Japan and the civil war between the nationalists and the communists in China do some studying.
The government of the North is considered criminal by most other nations not just the U.S. They have attacked South korea in recent years, kidnapped citizens from other countries, been a major player in drug dealing in Asia and are a noted counterfeiter.
Patchy do you support the three gerneration law in north Korea? If a person commits a "crime" then three generations are punished. Thats why newborns in North Korea are given prison sentences. Thats why Grandfathers and Grandmothers are beaten to death with pipes. a penalty encoded in North Korean law.
Patchy when are you going to North Korea?
Or are the sophmoric rants on here just the usual temper tantrums against the bad ol U.S.
Dont post articles as some kind of proof. If you look hard and long enough, you can find any kind of paper to match any world view.
Studys of North korea are highly inaccurate and flawed because of the closed nature of the society.
Read history not political tracts! When are you moving to North korea? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Instead of answering you directly.. let me predict that Patchy will ask you if YOU support some absurd law somewhere.
Getting Patchy to answer a direct question and stay on topic is the challenge in this thread.  |
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patchy
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| What do you feel about the internment of families in Indian reservations in the US, big verne? (And the question is also directed to rollo, Captain Corea and Hater Depot.) |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Being of native american ancestry I dont like Indian reservations at all. It isnot internment. You are free to leave. Treatment of Native Americans is certainly a shame. There is no excuse or justification
How do you compare treatment of Native Americans with Stalins murder of 40 million. Maos murder of 50-60 million and the Kims of North korea's murder of 19-30- million
But I guess all that is okay since it was not the U.S.
The U.S. does bad things so all other systems must be better?
When will you annouce move to the DPRK? |
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patchy
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
Being of native american ancestry I dont like Indian reservations at all. It isnot internment. You are free to leave. Treatment of Native Americans is certainly a shame. There is no excuse or justification
How do you compare treatment of Native Americans with Stalins murder of 40 million. Maos murder of 50-60 million and the Kims of North korea's murder of 19-30- million
But I guess all that is okay since it was not the U.S.
The U.S. does bad things so all other systems must be better?
When will you annouce move to the DPRK? |
I think the people who don't like leftists should leave South Korea now.
They are being hypocrites by staying here. As I said, it wouldn't have been possible for them to come here and work in freedom if the leftists hadn't sacrificed their lives to overthrow the American-backed dictatorship that illegally ruled South Korea for 50 years.
The patriots who gave up their lives in the name of freedom came from all walks of life: university students, workers ... even halmonis and middle school boys. Yes, the same kind of middle schoolboys you see everyday in your classroom.
But the posters here who attack leftists place themselves above these people: that's correct - above the middle school boys who gave up their lives for freedom, including the freedom for foreigners to come here and work unmolested, the freedom for people to elect a leftist government, the freedom for South Koreans to choose to reconcile with North Korea.
No, I wouldn't want to live in NK because America's war against NK for the past 60 years has turned it into a hell on earth - a whole country turned into a garrison state, a nation at siege continuously, under the threat of annhiliation.
And I don't want North Koreans continuing to live like this either. (Or any other people for that matter.) And neither does Roh and the leftists in this country. Hence the unconditional support for North Korea.
Last edited by patchy on Tue May 16, 2006 8:53 am; edited 3 times in total |
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patchy
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
How do you compare treatment of Native Americans with Stalins murder of 40 million. Maos murder of 50-60 million and the Kims of North korea's murder of 19-30- million
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Please show a source for your figures. |
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