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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| That's the whole point. The law is the problem |
I don't think the law is the problem. The problem I see is there is definitely a lack of compassion. Compassion meaning that though others in terrible situations do a wrong, we can forgive and lead them towards the better --- not throw them a shovel and say dig.
DD
I'm so glad my shit detector is still working ........... |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| The UK did grant asylum prior to this law of course. However, we did not have such problems deporting people to 'unsafe' countries. There is now far too much attention paid to the human rights of criminals and not enough to the safety of the public. Common sense should dictate that if you hijack a plane a gunpoint to enter a country, you have forfeited some of your human rights, and you should be sent back from whence you came. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| The problem I see is there is definitely a lack of compassion. |
The problem is that there is too much compassion, which has led the UK to becoming an international soup kitchen/welfare center that every chancer from Kabul to Lagos is desperate to get into. It is time we put our own interests first.
Why do you think they asked the pilot to divert to London? They knew they had a pretty good chance that our ineffectual judiciary would grant them leave to remain. If they had landed in Paris, they would be back in Afghanistan right now. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| The problem is that there is too much compassion, which has led the UK to becoming an international soup kitchen/welfare center that every chancer from Kabul to Lagos is desperate to get into. It is time we put our own interests first. |
there is an ancient proverb: If I am sick, I will knock on the door of someone who will help me.....can't fault anyone for that.
Your own interests are just a question of luck/fate/circumstance Your own life is just something of luck/fate/circumstance........until you realize that your own life is a gift, you will never get out of your "protect my own wealth" attitude. My crocodile tears to you.....there is no such thing as too much compassion my friend. You belong in a math class, I belong to LIFE......
Those with borders, walls, barbed wire, special stamps............are those who believe in their own omnipotence. The real truth is, that we are all just a roll of a dice. Grace / compassion is to be thankful of our own well being and to use that for a purpose -- not to protect our self interest. Get back in the cage with all the other animals......WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOF
DD
DD |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| The problem is that there is too much compassion, which has led the UK to becoming an international soup kitchen/welfare center that every chancer from Kabul to Lagos is desperate to get into. It is time we put our own interests first. |
PS. This is not a problem. This is an opportunity. The opportunity to be human.......to help and understand and to be more than mere, base need..............
DD |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
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| The problem is that there is too much compassion, which has led the UK to becoming an international soup kitchen/welfare center that every chancer from Kabul to Lagos is desperate to get into. It is time we put our own interests first. |
there is an ancient proverb: If I am sick, I will knock on the door of someone who will help me.....can't fault anyone for that.
Your own interests are just a question of luck/fate/circumstance Your own life is just something of luck/fate/circumstance........until you realize that your own life is a gift, you will never get out of your "protect my own wealth" attitude. My crocodile tears to you.....there is no such thing as too much compassion my friend. You belong in a math class, I belong to LIFE......
Those with borders, walls, barbed wire, special stamps............are those who believe in their own omnipotence. The real truth is, that we are all just a roll of a dice. Grace / compassion is to be thankful of our own well being and to use that for a purpose -- not to protect our self interest. Get back in the cage with all the other animals......WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOF
DD
DD |
How the hell would a state create effective public policy if the above were in any way at all applicable to reality?
I'll give it a try,
"Life is a cosmic fluke, so, Fu$k it, come on in! We will give you all our stuff just to show the absurdity of it all!!"
One less espresso drunk while pondering the luck of life, one more math class is what you need.
It is actually possible for non-western nations to get rich. Helping them along would be/is the ultimate act of compassion. Don't you think? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| Those with borders, walls, barbed wire, special stamps............are those who believe in their own omnipotence |
It's not the sixties anymore you naive hippy. Your weak liberalism is laughed at as weakness by those who you would allow to enter our countries.
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| there is no such thing as too much compassion my friend |
That's an extremist, and wholly unrealistic position. We should be compassionate, to those who deserve our compassion. To those that hijack planes at gunpoint and spread hatred and incite violence, it's back to whatever desert hellhole you came from. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 3:29 am Post subject: |
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Those with borders, walls, barbed wire, special stamps............are those who believe in their own omnipotence
It's not the sixties anymore you naive hippy. Your weak liberalism is laughed at as weakness by those who you would allow to enter our countries.
Quote:
there is no such thing as too much compassion my friend
That's an extremist, and wholly unrealistic position. We should be compassionate, to those who deserve our compassion. To those that hijack planes at gunpoint and spread hatred and incite violence, it's back to whatever desert hellhole you came from. |
This sounds like some time-warped debate between Kahlil Gibran and Pat Buchanan.
Last edited by On the other hand on Mon May 15, 2006 6:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| That's an extremist, and wholly unrealistic position. We should be compassionate, to those who deserve our compassion. To those that hijack planes at gunpoint and spread hatred and incite violence, it's back to whatever desert hellhole you came from. |
So you get to decide you deserves compassion?????
As for the previous comments, about the unfunctionability of the state, if they opted to act "compassionately"..........what other "human " option is there???? Also, let me inform you (having lived and traveled many places over the globe), most people wish to stay where they are born, where they have identity. Migration is not of their own volition.........you deserve to be, get informed. I am no bleeding heart but I am a heart that also wishes no more blood shed................ Build your walls, they are all temporal and keep you in MORE than others out.
DD
Time for sleep, atleast there we are all equal. Equal in the sense that we don't take the absurdist position of our own fate as divine. To comments about weakness..........I've learnt that bravado and bigotry and chest pounding protectionism is builit on a lack of self confidence. I smile, I am happy and I live what I believe. You , you need a condom (of confidence).......to kill the child in you.....
DD |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| So you get to decide you deserves compassion????? |
I, and all other voters in a democracy decide who is allowed to settle in our country, and I am quite confident that only a few raving lunatics would support your position of compassion for hijackers and terrorists.
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| most people wish to stay where they are born, where they have identity. Migration is not of their own volition |
Well done for stating the obvious. Yes, most people want to stay where they are born. However, millions, perhaps hundreds of millions, would be prepared to move to the West if they could. Are there limits to how many we can take? Yes. Should we be picky about the type of people we let in? Yes. That is a sensible position, in marked contrast to your ridiculous opinions.
You demonstrate a total inability to recognise some harsh realities and this can be seen with your naive comments regarding a borderless world.
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| I smile, I am happy and I live what I believe. |
Do you? I presume you are renting out your house to an Afghan refugee, his wife and his five children. After all, you can never be too compassionate, can you? |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Oh My God!!
I won't even bother pasting and cutting and all that jazz........
I DO NOT believe one should just let open the borders and let everyone in.....I didn't say that. Please read more carefully, please be prepared to not assume, as so many do in this world. Assuming, they are all just desperate criminals etc...I was talking of this particular case and the desperation well unveiled within and the other actors involved........
Without digressing into the merits of immigration and how it creates a "better world", I would ask you to think about the option that, the "harsh realities" you talk about, are all of your own making.
The world won't go to hell if we help some others, Britain won't be filled with "Pakis"or"Jamaicans", no matter your fears. Things, life will go on..... Let me suggest that the fears you have be dealt with an eradicated. Try traveling,and not sanctimoniously for $$$ but into the heart of a country with no way out. Give of yourself. Immigrate. You will become a better man. Leave your tea and biscuits and white gloves at home.......
As for the comments about "hippies" etc....that just makes me proud. A very famous conservative commentator once remarked that when you speak the truth; comments, labeling are about all the other guys can throw at you.............
I am compassionate in my own way, my own means. I believe in the power of the small thing, a smile, a touch, a thought.............you have the big,thick skin............maybe we all are turning back into reptiles......?????
DD |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| I DO NOT believe one should just let open the borders and let everyone in.....I didn't say that |
To be honest, it's hard to decipher exactly what you really mean from amongst the vague platitudes that are you hallmark, but opening the borders is something you clearly alluded to.
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| Assuming, they are all just desperate criminals |
I am not assuming they are desperate criminals. You hijack a plane, you are a criminal. FACT.
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| the "harsh realities" you talk about, are all of your own making. |
People live in abject poverty in many countries all over the world. I don't need to go to Somalia to witness those harsh realities, they exist.
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| The world won't go to hell if we help some others |
I never said it would. We should help others, but we cannot help everyone, as you seem to assume, and we should not extend our compassion to those that do not deserve it, like terrorists, or those whose presence in our country threatens our security.
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| Try traveling,and not sanctimoniously for $$$ but into the heart of a country with no way out. |
I have lived abroad for a few years and guess what, I still don't think opening up our borders to the third world would be a good idea, perhaps because I don't think naive idealism is a sound basis for public policy. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| And if the law says that you have to be granted asylum if you face danger in your own country, what choice did the High Court have but to allow the men to stay? |
That's the whole point. The law is the problem. Since the Labour government signed up to the European Convention on Human Rights, there have been numerous cases where the rights of criminals have been put before the safety of the country. These Afghans should have been deported, without trial or appeal, back to Afghanistan. Just because they may have been in danger in Afghanistan (isn't everyone?) does not mean that we should have an obligation to resettle them. Particularly when they hijacked a plane to enter the country. If a law can produce such absurd and frankly dangerous rulings, then it needs to be changed, which the government is considering doing. Many commentators argue that the reason this law was brought in was to appease Mr. Blair's wife, and her lawyer friends, who have made quite a bundle. |
Is it me? I thought the European Convention on Human Rights came out of the experiences of WW2 and England was one of the first to sign circa 1950. Kind of predating the evil money grasping reach of "Blair's wife and lawyer friends". Who are these commentators making this connection?
Just sounds a naive and ridiculous comment to suggest International treaties - binding by law - are signed to pander to lawyers and politicians wives. It doesn't seem to give much credit to the political and legal system that are institutional foundations for the west. Particularly England where Biggy V is concerned enough about to want protection for.
Big V, if you can decide who needs to deported without trial or appeal, you're castrating the judiciary which helps ensure your lifestyle. You're one step away (if not already there) to deciding who needs, jailing, exiling, executing - without trial or appeal. You're advocating lawlessness and that just screams naivete to me.
And keep in mind that it's the legal process that decides if you're a criminal or not - so let's have the trial to determine wether or not someone has rights, before we decide who needs to go where.
I'm sure everyone can accept that the system failed here - but it's the system that makes England England and to denounce it and denigrate it, as you seem to be doing, isn't going to help. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:01 am Post subject: |
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Big V, if you can decide who needs to deported without trial or appeal, you're castrating the judiciary which helps ensure your lifestyle. You're one step away (if not already there) to deciding who needs, jailing, exiling, executing - without trial or appeal. You're advocating lawlessness and that just screams naivete to me.
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Of course. If BigVerne and Company are really concerned about the UK being over-run by religious fanatics, they should fight tooth and nail to uphold the rule of law. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Big V, if you can decide who needs to deported without trial or appeal, you're castrating the judiciary which helps ensure your lifestyle. |
Blair signed up to the Human Rights Act in 1998. So, let's not pretend that the UK would be some kind of tyranny without it. We seemed to be doing fine before it was incorporated into British law.
The judiciary, in many cases, does not help to ensure my lifestyle, but more often than not, endangers public safety by putting the rights of criminals and terrorists before those of the public.
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| If BigVerne and Company are really concerned about the UK being over-run by religious fanatics, they should fight tooth and nail to uphold the rule of law. |
But if the law works against the interests of the people, as it so clearly is, then it should be changed. Moreover, you are acting as if foreigners have the same rights and responsibilities as British citizens. They do not and as such, there is no danger to the liberties of British citizens if the rights of foreigners to trials, appeals and lawyers are curtailed. |
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