|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
|
 Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:33 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: |
| I'm sure she will be a great asset to America, where freedom of speech is more highly valued than in Europe, where it is under increasing attack from the PC ideologues of the left. |
Have you ever lived in Europe (that chunk of land across the channel)? Have you ever spent reading the news in various other languages and getting to know the media in these countries and not through the filter of American or British media which is abysmally poor at printing anything from the civilized world....(my apologizes to that one great paper, the Guardian). Have you ever sat around and discussed things with Europeans, late into the night? Free speech is alive and well in Europe thank you, even in E. Europe which I feel should be very damn proud how far they've come in creating an open society. Truly a velvet revolution in terms of the freedom they express....even in Italy, where the media is so Berlussconized, even journalists admit, there is independence, debate, FREEDOM and civic involvement. In Europe people follow issues and not the local Walmart flyer.................they protest and discuss the world around the dinner table and not spend so much time on the couch discussing celebrities and the latest reality show contestants.....Come on......
You are just off base with that comment. Voltaire would still find issues to rally against but he'd also be pleasantly pleased.
Ecrasez l'infame as he would say and what I am doing......I'm proud to spend lots of time with family and friends in Europe and feel very free there......
DD |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 2:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| my apologizes to that one great paper, the Guardian |
Hard to take you seriously when you state this, although it must be comforting to read something which confirms your liberal PC worldview, day in and day out.
| Quote: |
| Free speech is alive and well in Europe thank you |
Then why have Oriana Fallacci, Jean-Marie Le Pen, and others (including a French journalist who called Islam 'stupid') been taken to court for crimes of insulting Islam? Why was the Vlaams Belang outlawed in Belgium? Because they committed the crime of telling politically incorrect truths about the growing threat of Islam. That is why Ayaan Hirsi Ali is being persecuted now, even though it was common knowledge that she lied on her entry to the Netherlands (like many, many asylum seekers).
Many countries in Europe have laws which mitigate against free speech, far more than in the US, where it is an enshrined right. And it is not just in relation to Islam. In some European countries, holocaust denial is a crime. Now, you may disagree vehemently with what these people say, but if we believe in free speech, they should still have a right to voice their opinions. Or are you yet another liberal who only believes in free speech if it does not contradict your liberal dogma?
| Quote: |
| In Europe people follow issues and not the local Walmart flyer.................they protest and discuss the world around the dinner table and not spend so much time on the couch discussing celebrities and the latest reality show contestants.....Come on...... |
You are discussing, albeit in the most crude cultural stereotypes (those fat ignorant yanks!), what people discuss in private. I am talking about what you are legally allowed to say in the public sphere. In America, as a private citizen, I have far more freedom to state my opinion without being taken to court for 'incitement' or 'defamation' of a cultural group, or an ideology. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bigverne wrote: |
Many countries in Europe have laws which mitigate against free speech, far more than in the US, where it is an enshrined right. And it is not just in relation to Islam. In some European countries, holocaust denial is a crime. Now, you may disagree vehemently with what these people say, but if we believe in free speech, they should still have a right to voice their opinions. Or are you yet another liberal who only believes in free speech if it does not contradict your liberal dogma?
|
Hate speech has for some time been acknowledged as falling outside the protections involved in the concept of free speech. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Hate speech has for some time been acknowledged as falling outside the protections involved in the concept of free speech. |
No, it is a fairly recent invention, and it is so vaguely defined that it becomes a tool with which to smother dissenting opinions.
Incitement to violence has always been a crime. If I stand infront of an angry mob and tell them that Muslims are evil and that they should be forcibly removed from the country then that is clearly incitement.
If I state, in a newspaper or on a website, that Islam is a violent, intolerant religion that is a danger to Western democratic values, that is an opinion that (right or wrong) should be allowed. I believe it is very dangerous for governments to decide what speech is acceptable, on the vague grounds that it may be 'hate speech'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 4:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Satori wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
Many countries in Europe have laws which mitigate against free speech, far more than in the US, where it is an enshrined right. And it is not just in relation to Islam. In some European countries, holocaust denial is a crime. Now, you may disagree vehemently with what these people say, but if we believe in free speech, they should still have a right to voice their opinions. Or are you yet another liberal who only believes in free speech if it does not contradict your liberal dogma?
|
Hate speech has for some time been acknowledged as falling outside the protections involved in the concept of free speech. |
By who? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 4:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ddeubel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I'm sure she will be a great asset to America, where freedom of speech is more highly valued than in Europe, where it is under increasing attack from the PC ideologues of the left. |
Have you ever lived in Europe (that chunk of land across the channel)? Have you ever spent reading the news in various other languages and getting to know the media in these countries and not through the filter of American or British media which is abysmally poor at printing anything from the civilized world....(my apologizes to that one great paper, the Guardian). Have you ever sat around and discussed things with Europeans, late into the night? Free speech is alive and well in Europe thank you, even in E. Europe which I feel should be very damn proud how far they've come in creating an open society. Truly a velvet revolution in terms of the freedom they express....even in Italy, where the media is so Berlussconized, even journalists admit, there is independence, debate, FREEDOM and civic involvement. In Europe people follow issues and not the local Walmart flyer.................they protest and discuss the world around the dinner table and not spend so much time on the couch discussing celebrities and the latest reality show contestants.....Come on......
You are just off base with that comment. Voltaire would still find issues to rally against but he'd also be pleasantly pleased.
Ecrasez l'infame as he would say and what I am doing......I'm proud to spend lots of time with family and friends in Europe and feel very free there......
DD |
Have you ever danced naked with wolves while paddling a canoe down the amazon? Have you ever looked into a seashell and felt the profound suffering of oak trees? Have you ever doused yourself in so much patchouli that the wind spirits of the ever-expanding drum-circle (of life) wept tears of sorrow upon the profound collection of hot air that rests around/atop/inside your big head?
If not, then lets have a go at you, shall we?
Europeans are one trick ponies (by and large). Every opinion that they have, and are willing to express in public, has been carefully created and nurtured by the government. Dissenting opinions are simply not heard, and when they are, they are dealt with in one of two ways. 1) Shouted down as being "hard-right" (bringing up memories of Hitler {a socialist}) regardless of the actual political leaning of the idea or 2) criminalized.
Take some time out of your day (in between crying for gypsies and their plight in Europe and cursing "those Americans" for every thing under the sun you don't like) and read up on Malmo (a city in Sweden, which is in Europe, across the pond). One of the more interesting things you will come across is that it is anti-social to speak of the problems in Malmo. To even address that there is a problem is "racism" which is absurd and a "hate-crime" {properly undefined, as they always are}. Got that? To even suggest that there is a problem with Muslim Crime publicly will bring the multicultural police (and their multicultural guns) to your house.
I wonder, do these Europeans sit around, late into the night, and talk about how they, and THEY ALONE fu$ked Africa beyond repair? Do they talk about allllll the genocides that have been committed by European governments in Africa and elsewhere. I have a secret for you, They Don't. In fact, most Europeans have absolutely no idea as to the crimes their governments (England and France most importantly) committed up until 40 years ago. Instead, like pathetic little children, they spend their time talking about domestic American immigration policy (front page BBC and Guardian right now). Jealous little dorks, the whole lot.
Get a grip. You haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hey, I agree, Europeans have fucked up many places , too long a list to mention.........then we have WW2 and all that jazz...... BUT that wasn't my point, so why bring it up????
I have lived many years in Europe, many places and traveled throughout it extensively. Also read/speak 3 of her languages as well as English. I find Europe a lot more open and with informed debate, than most of the world. There is smallness, yes. But it is confined (to my home especially Switzerland and of course the pretencious champagne Socialist, French. They also have debate --- they also protest, they also scream. Your Europe is not mine. Mine is a place of protest and debate (which you don't see much of in America because protest is largely fostered by a free thinking/printing media). Also informed debate.
| Quote: |
| Get a grip. You haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. |
Your post is pure hyperbole about Europeans. My brother in law lives in Malmo (or ex brother in law I guess is the right term, if that exists) and he wouldn't agree with you......Swedish law strikes down "hate speech" but allows debate. I would even opine that Swedes are quite bigoted and vocal about the Muslim problem......... if you read local newspapers, you have newspapers of all nationalities, languages. They express themselves and declare themselves. It works for the most part, with the govt stepping in to limit bigoted tensions.....(which I disagree with but they do it, given their historical sensitivities.)
Verne, you are right about Europe being very legalistically against free speech. Shame on them in my opinion. They are cautious and I disagree with how they clamp down on things. Especially the French as mentioned. Still, I think free expression has two sides..........like the debate of if a tree falls in the forest, does anyone hear it????? Free expression is a defined communally, it is about participation and the diversity of views. America is becoming more and more polarized. Everyone is screaming the same message essentially. There is also much much more socially sanctioned opposition and pressure against free expression in the U.S. People don't speak their minds because like even little Peter Arnet, they will be set out on their ass......
Also , how many academics have been denied access to the U.S. recently for no other reason than their race/religion? One such being Dr. Waskar Ari http://www.historians.org/Perspectives/issues/2006/0603/0603new4.cfm
Free speech is a mute issue because it is butted out before it can even happen. That seems to be the general approach......
Especially given the Patriot Act. Not much upholding of the 1st amendment in America anymore and it is becoming a land where everyone is free to say anything but nobody says anything..............Bush should be thrown in prison for his violation of the 1st amendment or atleast any of the judiciary who support eroding its protections.....America is a closeted and self gagged nation, in my opinion.
| Quote: |
It has been reported that the Patriot Act was not even printed for reading of the US legislators before it was passed , with provisions not read by a majority of legislators when it was voted on .The erosion of � democracy � and � freedom� is now complete and includes emasculation of the � freedom of speech� . The Patriot Act has become permanent law as of 2005, and the recent changes are now referred to as Patriot Act II, passed with the unanimous vote of the Senate . The objective of this Act which abrogates the freedom of organization , right to freedom of speech , right to legal counsel among other rights , is not the pursuit of a few � terrorists ", who were permitted to enter and function in the USA with impunity, as the disclosure of project � Able Danger� and other evidence of US Intelligence and other official agencies reveal .Neither is the Act for the pursuit of Bin Laden and his extended family, who were provided special aircrafts to assist them in leaving the United States even as flights for other citizens of the United States were restricted ; it is not for the Carlyle Corporation in which the bin Laden family had investments along with leading political families of the United States , but for the large majority of the citizens of the United States . Among other measures implemented through the Patriot Act to deter freedom of _expression and organization, it is now permissible for the FBI to request all kinds of personal and private information, including library lists of the person under investigation ,an unprecedented measure for any society which claims to rest its foundation on a scientific temper and a spirit of inquiry . The office of Homeland Security is immune from the scrutiny of Congress and functions under executive fiat in direct violation of the Constitution of the United States, which provides for checks and balances. The nature of measures conferring extensive powers on the FBI and other intelligence agencies have transformed the United States into a Police or a fascist State. That the Patriot Act was not a response to any kind of terrorism by alleged Muslim or Arab terrorists is established from the fact that the Patriot Act was never used to bring to justice any of the so called terrorists responsible for 9/11 even after it was passed, though more than 5000 minorities of Muslim or Arab descent, who were residents and domiciled in the USA and innocent of any terrorist act, were immediately illegally detained without the knowledge of their families and friends, many incommunicado .
The vast increase in domestic spying powers over the past five years |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
Quote:
Kind of an arbitrary way of doing things, ain't it?
Indeed it is. Would you have her deported? |
I don't know. It would depend on how similar cases are handled in the Netherlands, including cases where the prospective deportee has no significant political views.
If other, less celebrated, immigrants have been deported to dangerous countries four years after their transgressions came to light, then I would have no hesitancy in saying that that is what should be done to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. If, on the other hand, the Netherlands has a policy of overlooking fraudulent paperwork in cases similar to Ms. Hirsi Ali's, then I would say she should get the same leniency.
Probably the preferred solution would be to strip her of her citizenship, and whatever benefits said citizenship confers, so as not to be seen as rewarding fraud. However, she should also be allowed to apply for some sort of refugee status in the Netherlands. Not sure how that would jibe with Dutch law as written.
My main point is that she should get no special treatment simply because of what her political views are. And nor should anyone else. |
From FindLaw
| Quote: |
Hirsi Ali, 36, said Saturday she was puzzled by the uproar since she publicly acknowledged the false refugee application when she stood for parliament in 2002.
"Have they all gone mad?" she said about the revived controversy, accusing her rivals of a political vendetta.
"Yes, I did lie to get asylum in Holland. This is public knowledge since at least September 2002," she said in a telephone call from Hamburg, Germany. |
They are 4 years late for doing the right thing, and stripping her of citizenship. This controversy is totally political. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Swedish law strikes down "hate speech" but allows debate |
But I think this statement is contradictory. 'Hate speech' is so vaguely defined that the application of these laws actually smothers honest debate. Sweden is also the country that took a number of websites offline that displayed the Mohammed cartoons, which is a pretty good indication of how free one is to debate certain topics in that country.
Increasingly in Europe, if you stray outside the boundaries of politically correct debate then you are liable to prosecution. I don't see much free speech in Europe. I see plenty of protesting, but such protests are inevitably about the same staple issues of the left - the evil of the USA and Israel, global warming, fair trade. I don't see a whole lot of diversity there.
By the way, the EU has recently been debating bringing in laws to protect religious communities from defamation, which would be a disgusting affront to our freedom to criticise, debate, and ridicule religious beliefs. Now, guess which group this is aimed at appeasing? No, it's not the Methodists.
Frankly I don't care much what is going on in America, and I think you should be more concerned about our problems in Europe. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| This controversy is totally political. |
She is brutally honest about Islam, and that is something many in Holland cannot handle. Do they think if they remove her from Holland, the problems of dealing with their unassimilated Muslim population will go away? Shooting the messenger. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
Kuros wrote:
| Quote: |
Quote:
Hirsi Ali, 36, said Saturday she was puzzled by the uproar since she publicly acknowledged the false refugee application when she stood for parliament in 2002.
"Have they all gone mad?" she said about the revived controversy, accusing her rivals of a political vendetta.
"Yes, I did lie to get asylum in Holland. This is public knowledge since at least September 2002," she said in a telephone call from Hamburg, Germany.
They are 4 years late for doing the right thing, and stripping her of citizenship. This controversy is totally political.
|
Thanks Kuros. However, I'm not sure you've proven that she's been singled out for special attention.
We know that nothing resulted from the original revelation of fraud four years ago. Was that because the Dutch don't normally care whether paperwork is in order, or because she had political connections, or because nobody got around to lodging a formal complaint, or...?
If it IS the case that the Dutch authorities don't care about paperwork, then I agree, it's just selective prosecution if she gets stripped of her citizenship. However...
| Quote: |
The immigration minister - a political ally - says she would have expelled Hirsi Ali had she been the minister at the time.
"I don't like lies," said Rita Verdonk. But she said too much time has passed to punish Hirsi Ali now.
|
So the immigration minister, who is a supporter of Hirsi Ali, seems to think that expulsion would have been in order when the fabrication came to light. This leads me to wonder whether the Dutch are really as laissez-faire about the legal niceties as Hirsi Ali's supporters are making out.
Last edited by On the other hand on Tue May 16, 2006 6:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 6:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
BigVerne wrote:
| Quote: |
Sweden is also the country that took a number of websites offline that displayed the Mohammed cartoons, which is a pretty good indication of how free one is to debate certain topics in that country.
|
But actually, if I recall, the cartoons got more display in the European press than in the USA, where I think only a handful of newspapers and no TV networks decided to run them. This might back up ddeubel's point about American self-censorship, though probably not in a way that he would like(since I'd imagine he would have us believe that Europeans are more sensitive toward Muslim feelings than are Americans). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
On the other hand,
| Quote: |
| (since I'd imagine he would have us believe that Europeans are more sensitive toward Muslim feelings than are Americans). |
I do believe that many Europeans are quite "racist, bigoted". They aren't that sensitive but they debate openly. I have sat many times , stupified by the things I heard doctors, business men say about "Arabs, Gypsies, Turks". Horrible and what I abhor most about "europe".
But this is precisely why , based on learned history, countries have decided to ban "wacko" , hate stuff..........Britain less so and it is paying the price for a very virulent form of bigotry in their country...........
Big Verne, check out this British site..........it is precisely these guys who are always saying so much about free speech but if every in power (god forbid!!!), would deny all others....BJWD, You'll probably enjoy it -- given your little slip about me crying about "gypsies" ......
http://www.heretical.com/
Please, anyone else , click this site with caution. You are probably being monitored.....
DD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| But this is precisely why , based on learned history, countries have decided to ban "wacko" , hate stuff |
They haven't decided to ban 'wacko' hate stuff (whatever that is) but have actually put in laws which make it a criminal offense to defame a religion. Criticising Islam for example, or the problems certain countries have with certain immigrant groups is not 'hateful' but addressing difficult problems which should be tackled honestly. If we ignore these problems, and try to muzzle anyone who speaks out on them, by accusing them of 'hate speech', the problems will not go away, but will fester and grow, creating huge problems in the future.
| Quote: |
| Britain less so and it is paying the price for a very virulent form of bigotry in their country........... |
Please explain. The Far Right is far less powerful in the UK than it is in continental Europe.
But what you say contains some truth. Europeans may speak their mind in private, but in the public realm this is becoming more problematic. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has resigned from the Dutch parliament and has announced her intention to move to the USA. She makes some very important points in her statement.
http://www.judeoscope.ca/breve.php3?id_breve=1492
I wanted politicians to grasp the fact that major aspects of Islamic doctrine and tradition, as practiced today, are incompatible with the open society.
To return to the present day, may I say that it is difficult to live with so many threats on your life and such a level of police protection. It is difficult to work as a parliamentarian if you have nowhere to live. All that is difficult, but not impossible. It has become impossible since last night, when Minister Verdonk informed me that she would strip me of my Dutch citizenship.
I am therefore preparing to leave Holland. But the questions for our society remain. The future of Islam in our country; the subjugation of women in Islamic culture; the integration of the many Muslims in the West: it is self-deceit to imagine that these issues will disappear.
I will continue to ask uncomfortable questions, despite the obvious resistance that they elicit. I feel that I should help other people to live in freedom, as many people have helped me. I personally have gone through a long and sometimes painful process of personal growth in this country. It began with learning to tell the truth to myself, and then the truth about myself: I strive now to also tell the truth about society as I see it.
That transition from becoming a member of a clan to becoming a citizen in an open society is what public service has come to mean for me. Only clear thinking and strong action can lead to real change, and free many people within our society from the mental cage of submission. The idea that I can contribute to their freedom, whether in the Netherlands or in another country, gives me deep satisfaction.
Ladies and Gentlemen, as of today, I resign from Parliament. I regret that I will be leaving the Netherlands, the country which has given me so many opportunities and enriched my life, but I am glad that I will be able to continue my work. I will go on.
Holland's loss is America's gain. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
