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junkmail
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
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 Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| I'm sure she will be a great asset to America, where freedom of speech is more highly valued than in Europe, where it is under increasing attack from the PC ideologues of the left. |
I'm sure she will be an asset to the USA but the Netherlands was a stupid decision in the first place given their current demography, not to mention a general backlash against immigration in Europe generally. I do feel though, that if she'd come to the U.K. we'd have given her citizenship based on political asylum and for once I'd have agreed with that. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has resigned from the Dutch parliament and has announced her intention to move to the USA. She makes some very important points in her statement.
http://www.judeoscope.ca/breve.php3?id_breve=1492
I wanted politicians to grasp the fact that major aspects of Islamic doctrine and tradition, as practiced today, are incompatible with the open society.
To return to the present day, may I say that it is difficult to live with so many threats on your life and such a level of police protection. It is difficult to work as a parliamentarian if you have nowhere to live. All that is difficult, but not impossible. It has become impossible since last night, when Minister Verdonk informed me that she would strip me of my Dutch citizenship.
I am therefore preparing to leave Holland. But the questions for our society remain. The future of Islam in our country; the subjugation of women in Islamic culture; the integration of the many Muslims in the West: it is self-deceit to imagine that these issues will disappear.
I will continue to ask uncomfortable questions, despite the obvious resistance that they elicit. I feel that I should help other people to live in freedom, as many people have helped me. I personally have gone through a long and sometimes painful process of personal growth in this country. It began with learning to tell the truth to myself, and then the truth about myself: I strive now to also tell the truth about society as I see it.
That transition from becoming a member of a clan to becoming a citizen in an open society is what public service has come to mean for me. Only clear thinking and strong action can lead to real change, and free many people within our society from the mental cage of submission. The idea that I can contribute to their freedom, whether in the Netherlands or in another country, gives me deep satisfaction.
Ladies and Gentlemen, as of today, I resign from Parliament. I regret that I will be leaving the Netherlands, the country which has given me so many opportunities and enriched my life, but I am glad that I will be able to continue my work. I will go on.
Holland's loss is America's gain. |
Indeed, it looks like she is trying to promote herself as even more of a hero and a kind of martyr in the wake of her expulsion from the Netherlands. She's a double refugee now, and the fact that the timing on her punishment for lying on her application to Holland is so suspect and seemingly political makes her a huge symbol for what she believes. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| it looks like she is trying to promote herself as even more of a hero and a kind of martyr in the wake of her expulsion from the Netherlands |
In this day and age, she is one of the few people who could be described as a hero. Continuing to speak the truth, even after the death of Theo Van Gogh, and the death threats and the 24 hour security, takes a great deal of courage. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 3:17 am Post subject: ... |
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| Is she the first victim of a clamping down that you yourself thoroughly support? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 3:40 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Is she the first victim of a clamping down that you yourself thoroughly support? |
No, she is the victim of a political witchhunt.
I do support a clampdown on immigration, but as I have already said, she has more than proven her commitment to her adopted country and its values. The same cannot be said for many other Muslim immigrants. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| she has more than proven her commitment to her adopted country and its values. The same cannot be said for many other Muslim immigrants. |
I agree, but how would one go about such an assessment? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| I agree, but how would one go about such an assessment? |
You agree with what? That many Muslims do not integrate like Hirsi Ali had done? I am glad you are finally coming around to my point of view.
As far as making an assessment of every single immigrant, you couldn't really, although you could deport people involved in serious crimes, who had failed to get a job, or who were involved in seditious activities. The answer is to not allow in so many Muslim immigrants in the first place, which is something Hirsi Ali herself argued.
Of course, if they are genuinely fleeing persecution, or their lives would be in danger if they were deported they should be allowed to stay, unless they are a threat to national security. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:32 am Post subject: ... |
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You agree with what? That many Muslims do not integrate like Hirsi Ali had done? I am glad you are finally coming around to my point of view.
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I disagree that citing the Hadith, Shariah, or Dhimmitude makes any statement of substance about Muslims as a whole.
I am glad that you're coming around to my point of view. 
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| The answer is to not allow in so many Muslim immigrants in the first place, which is something Hirsi Ali herself argued. |
OK. Hey, I AGREE.
That's very different from you assailing Islam on religious grounds. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| I disagree that citing the Hadith, Shariah, or Dhimmitude makes any statement of substance about Muslims as a whole. |
But we weren't discussing that, so why are you even bringing it up?
I stated this:-
she has more than proven her commitment to her adopted country and its values. The same cannot be said for many other Muslim immigrants.
To which you stated:-
What part of that statement were you agreeing with, just for clarification?
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| That's very different from you assailing Islam on religious grounds. |
And that doesn't even make any sense. I can't criticise a religion, on religious grounds? Lay off the booze mate, you're making very little sense. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:53 am Post subject: |
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I agree unequivocably that Hirsi Ali is an incredible woman. I want to sing along with her against all those Muslim pricks that put down women (and all the western ones that continue to beat their women/pay them less, treat them as sex objects....). She is an asset to whatever place will hear her, sing with her....
That said, I find it incredibly ironic how all those who would propose to limit "muslim" immigration especially are so prone to applaud her case. Utterly hypocritical and WRONG!!! Stick with your story or show yourselves as the fascists you are.
ONE. Either a person is a person, regardless of origin or is not, is sub-human. See, The Rights of Man, a very AMERICAN and seminal document which speaks to people as people , not outgrowths of some far sprung place.
TWO. A person's beliefs should matter naught, regarding their immigration status. There action should if they are criminal. I find it laughable that those decrying immigration in Britain and elsewhere, Muslim immigrants who speak their heart, are against these people but for ANYONE LIKE HIRSI ALI, who thinks like them. It is like, hey --- we only want those who think like us, the rest of you get lost!!!!!!!!!! This is not democracy, this is not puralism, this is not compassion but plain egoism....
MY POINT. Those who limit immigration and spout off about all the immigrants being criminals, being losers, being terrorists, being just abusers of the system.................. all these people are only stating that they only want those who think like them...........bigots. The strength of any democracy is in its diversity, how it treats its minorities.......all those (to be nameless on this thread) who are so two face, I call them to task for what they are. either all men are created equal or get ready with your howlwitzer.....
DD
PS> Please inform yourself about how horrible the Muslim religion treats women. Then also inform yourself about how nothing much has happened regarding women's rights in our own western countries.....they are still second class citizens, clinging mostly to men, a man's paycheck, a man's methodology/mindset, a man's lead.......
End of rant and god bless Hirsi Ali......she comes from experience which most of us don't have. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| That said, I find it incredibly ironic how all those who would propose to limit "muslim" immigration especially are so prone to applaud her case. Utterly hypocritical and WRONG!!! Stick with your story or show yourselves as the fascists you are. |
I think Islamic immigration should be limited in Europe. The idea is not that half or almost all or even a minority of Muslims are causing problems in Europe. The idea is that even given a plethora of Hirschi Alis, you will have a great deal of Muslims not necessarily ready to make the transition from traditional Islamic society to an open Western one.
Hirschi Ali is a remarkable and extraordinary case and should be treated as one. The fact that she is not only a member of the government but also is being threatened by Islamofascists for making a video critical of Islam means she falls outside the pale of what should happen normally. So, I respectfully disagree with those who have argued without insult that Hirschi Ali might deserve expulsion in this case. I think they had their chance to expel her in 2002, but they passed it up.
To the others who have made some of their own arguments, I ask, isn't Hirschi one of the 'fascists' who would ask the Netherlands to limit Islamic immigration? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:21 am Post subject: |
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So much nonsense in that post it's difficult to know where to begin.
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| I find it incredibly ironic how all those who would propose to limit "muslim" immigration especially are so prone to applaud her case. |
Actually, it is not ironic at all. I want to limit Muslim immigration because so many Muslim immigrants are the mirror opposite to Hirsi Ali - anti-Western, against assimilation, and conservatively Muslim. However, those that do integrate and accept Western values should be embraced.
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| Either a person is a person, regardless of origin or is not, is sub-human |
For someone who likes to think of himself as some kind of free-thinker, such a black and white statement truly is ironic. Muslims are people, of course. Is large scale Muslim immigration a benefit to my country? Of course not. Does this mean I think Muslims are subhuman? No.
Try to get your little brain around that logic.
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| A person's beliefs should matter naught, regarding their immigration status. |
So, to plagiarize another poster Mohammed 'I hate the West and believe that Shariah will dominate' Al-Jihadi's views should play no part in his immigration status?
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| It is like, hey --- we only want those who think like us, the rest of you get lost!!!!!!!!!! |
No, we only want those who accept our basic values and will integrate into our society. Many, many Muslims, more than any other immigrant group simply do not meet those criteria, and as such, immigration of such people should be vastly reduced. That is just commonsense. What you propose is cultural suicide.
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| This is not democracy, this is not puralism, this is not compassion but plain egoism.... |
Democracy is simply about the government representing the wishes of the people. It is not, as you seem to believe, about adhering to the social mores of the Guardian.
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| Those who limit immigration and spout off about all the immigrants being criminals, being losers, being terrorists, being just abusers of the system. |
The old strawmen always comes in handy! Please state where anyone has made such a statement, or stick to the facts.
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| The strength of any democracy is in its diversity |
Another meaningless platitude. A country can have a restrictive immigration policy and still be a democracy.
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| all these people are only stating that they only want those who think like them...........bigots |
I want people who sign up to basic liberal, Western, democratic values, and who will make an effort to integrate. Apart from that, I couldn't care less what their particular political views are.
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| either all men are created equal or get ready with your howlwitzer |
All men are created equal. All cultures are not.
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| Then also inform yourself about how nothing much has happened regarding women's rights in our own western countries.....they are still second class citizens, clinging mostly to men, a man's paycheck, a man's methodology/mindset, a man's lead....... |
And then you top it off with an astounding peice of moral equivalence that even the Guardian wouldn't stoop too. You are really comparing the rights and freedoms of women in the West to places like Yemen, Oman, Saudi, Iran, Pakistan and Algeria?
Any integrity you may have had just flew out the window with that statement. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: |
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Quote:
Those who limit immigration and spout off about all the immigrants being criminals, being losers, being terrorists, being just abusers of the system.
The old strawmen always comes in handy! Please state where anyone has made such a statement, or stick to the facts. |
You have extensively alluded to Islamic texts to describe Muslims in a very extreme way.
Please restate what you've previously stated. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:57 am Post subject: |
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He stated that certain people had described all immigrants being criminals, being losers, being terrorists, being just abusers of the system.
That is nonsense. I cannot recall anyone saying anything of the sort.
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| You have extensively alluded to Islamic texts to describe Muslims in a very extreme way. |
I have not described Muslims in a 'very extreme way' and I challenge you to provide evidence where I have done so. If you want to challenge anything that I have specifically said, then please go ahead.
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| Please restate what you've previously stated. |
Could you be any more vague? I have made many statements, and I have no idea which one you are referring to. Your babble is becoming increasingly tiresome. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Wikipedia has a more detailed account of the recent events surrounding Ms. Hirsi Ali's citizenship.
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In May 2006 the Dutch television program "Zembla" [13] revisited the fact that in her asylum request, Hirsi Ali lied about her real name, her age and the country she arrived from. She had informed the public about these facts as early as September 2002 in an interview in the political magazine HP/De Tijd.[14][15][16] Media speculation arose that she could lose her Dutch Citizenship because of this 'identity fraud', rendering her ineligible for Parliament. In a first reaction Minister Rita Verdonk [17] said she would not look into the matter, but after Member of Parliament Hilbrand Nawijn insisted, she declared that she would investigate Hirsi Ali's naturalisation process. This investigation took three days. The findings were that Hirsi Ali never received Dutch citizenship after all, because she lied about her name and date of birth. She stated that she was Ayaan Hirsi Ali, born in 1967, but she is actually Ayaan Hirsi Magan, born in 1969. Therefore the Dutch government's position apparently is that Hirsi Ali's Dutch citizenship is invalid and declared null and void. After a long and emotional debate in the Dutch Parliament, Minister Verdonk promised to reexamine the matter. She astonished MP's by claiming that Hirsi Ali still has Dutch citizenship during the period of reexamination. Hirsi Ali does however still have her residency permit, which was granted in 1992. It is unlikely that her permit will be taken away from her.
On May 16, Hirsi Ali resigned from Parliament after admitting lying on her asylum application. On that day she gave a press conference [18] in which she restated that although she felt it was wrong to be granted asylum under false pretences, the facts had been publicly known since 2002 when they were reported in the media and in one of her publications. In the press conference she also restated that she spoke the truth about the reason for asking asylum which was the threat of forced marriage.
On May 15, 2006, after the broadcast of the "Zembla"-documentary, news stories erupted saying that Hirsi Ali is likely to move to the United States in September 2006. There she, as a liberal, will work on her book Shortcut to Enlightenment and work for the conservative think tank American Enterprise Institute.[19] Christopher DeMuth (President of the AEI) has confirmed in a letter that recent events in the Netherlands will not affect the appointment. He stated:
Dear Ayaan:
I am writing to offer you an appointment as Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. My colleagues and I have reviewed the research proposal you sent to me last week. We are confident that your work at AEI could make important contributions to urgent issues of politics and social understanding�in particular, to furthering the reconciliation of Muslim teachings with the ideals of individual freedom and responsibility and the �open society.�
We appreciate that your views have been controversial and are likely to remain so; we believe that controversies such as these, when conducted in a spirit of civility and reasoned inquiry, are essential to intellectual progress, and are to be welcomed rather than feared.
In your application and in our recent conversations, you envisioned joining AEI in the autumn. I understand that subsequent political developments in Holland may lead you to wish to accelerate the date of your appointment. If that is the case, I will be happy to work with you to arrange a starting date that accommodates your new circumstances. Let me add that I have been deeply angered by the unfair and partisan attacks that have been leveled against you and have admired your courage and forthrightness in the face of this hounding.
My colleagues and I are looking forward to welcoming you to AEI, and to America.
Yours truly,
Christopher DeMuth [20]
In a reaction, former VVD minister Hans Wiegel stated that her departure "would not be a loss to the VVD and not be a loss to the Tweede Kamer".[21] Wiegel said that Hirsi Ali was a brave woman, but that her opinions were polarizing. Former parliamentary leader of the VVD, Jozias van Aartsen, was more positive about Hirsi Ali, saying that it is "painful for Dutch society and politics that she is leaving the Tweede Kamer".[22] Another VVD MP, Bibi de Vries, claimed that if something were to happen to Hirsi Ali, some people in her party would have "blood on their hands."
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali |
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