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jacl
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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 Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| If it were for an ESL position, and both candidates had the same teaching experience, one with an MA and the other a BA, I'd hire the one who I think would do a better job. The MA isn't really a factor. |
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PRagic
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Well spoken. The only problem is that there ARE universities that DO hire BAs with a few year of experience. I agree that there should be more stringent qualifications, but to be honest, I wouldn't hold my breath. The fact is, 'academia' is speckeled with people trained in one dicipline, but teaching another. ESL, and especially in this country, can't expect much else.
Of course, the resulting problem is the 'hakwonization' of Korean universities. Rather then employ people with experience AND advanced degrees, they are hiring anyone with any BA and some experience. In the end, the translates to more contact hours, lower pay, and decreased vacation time. I'd rather WORK with Ph.D.s in physics if it means proper jobs with proper employment conditions! |
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Francis-Pax
Joined: 20 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| PRagic wrote: |
Well spoken. The only problem is that there ARE universities that DO hire BAs with a few year of experience. I agree that there should be more stringent qualifications, but to be honest, I wouldn't hold my breath. The fact is, 'academia' is speckeled with people trained in one dicipline, but teaching another. ESL, and especially in this country, can't expect much else.
Of course, the resulting problem is the 'hakwonization' of Korean universities. Rather then employ people with experience AND advanced degrees, they are hiring anyone with any BA and some experience. In the end, the translates to more contact hours, lower pay, and decreased vacation time. I'd rather WORK with Ph.D.s in physics if it means proper jobs with proper employment conditions! |
I firmly believe that people who have the right experience and academic qualifications will be able to find very good EFL jobs in Korea. There are many examples such as Andrew Finch who completed his Doctorate in language education from the University of Manchester while teaching in Hong Kong and Korea. He has a tenured position at Kyungppook National University in Daegu. I also know another tenured professor, David Schaffer, who is tenured at Chosun University. He completed a doctorate in linguistics at Chosun University. Both of those guys make enough money and get pretty good respect.
In short, if you work hard and apply yourself, you can find good jobs (not perfect). It is just like anything else. You have to develop yourself and dedicate yourself to a path. The problem is that people are lazy and are not resolved to dedicate themselves to one thing. People just want things to happen to them without any work or commitment. In Korea especially, there is a myth that if I just teach for two or three years, I should automatically get a high paying job with nice benefits. That certainly would not happen in the United States or the United Kingdom. Why should we expect it here?
I think that one of the problems that creates this kind of attitude is that the barriers to teach English in Korea are so low. You just give a copy of your passport cover page, official college transcripts, your degree certificate and then you board a plane for Korea to a to a job that gives you a high amount of disposable income, no rent, and low expectations. The assumption is then made that all EFL jobs are like this. |
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PRagic
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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"If it were for an ESL position, and both candidates had the same teaching experience, one with an MA and the other a BA, I'd hire the one who I think would do a better job. The MA isn't really a factor."
You've GOT to be kidding. Attitudes like that have driven salaries into the gutter.
As for the tenured Ph.D.s working in Korea, great points. I imagine that they had to publish in rated, international academic journals as well. I'd be curious to know what their salaries are. |
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alexh
Joined: 13 May 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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I could see your point if the requirement was to teach English Comp or Lit at the university level, but are not most of the classes at uni's in Korea conversational?
| PRagic wrote: |
Why not pay them more? If there were two people up for a job, and they both had an equal amount of experience but only one had their MA, wouldn't you hire the one with better academic qualifications?
It's funny to see all the BA holders defending their positions HERE when they would never be allowed to teach at any university anywhere else. Funny how these 'dedicated' teachers place so much emphasis on 10 years of experience, but never bother to broaden their knowledge of the field by going back to school. If you are at an institute, fine, but for university work? Not. I wish Korea would make the MA mandatory for all university ESL positions nation wide. |
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PRagic
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Comp or Lit should be taught by Ph.D.s. My point was that the ESL jobs should be taught by at least M.A.s at the university level.
Korean universities are, however, remarkably cheap when it comes to their English programs. The trend in this country of having to go outside formal educational instutions to gain expertise continues right on up through the university levels. I don't know one single university program in Korea designed to take a student from no proficiency to third year fluency in English. Most if not all of the students gain their proficiency either abroad or at private institutes. And they wonder why the universities have such low international rankings? |
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ejmlab
Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Location: Pohang
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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offtopic
Last edited by ejmlab on Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:52 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Francis-Pax wrote: |
There are many examples such as Andrew Finch who completed his Doctorate in language education from the University of Manchester while teaching in Hong Kong and Korea. He has a tenured position at Kyungppook National University in Daegu. I also know another tenured professor, David Schaffer, who is tenured at Chosun University. He completed a doctorate in linguistics at Chosun University. Both of those guys make enough money and get pretty good respect.
In short, if you work hard and apply yourself, you can find good jobs (not perfect). It is just like anything else.... |
Would you please continue your list of "many examples?" Why not include in your examples only those who are in Korea only on an E-1 visa? Do not include those foreign professors married to Koreans (on an F-2 visa)? Why? Marital status is not a requirement for university positions, right? Or do you believe that one should marry a Korean in order to get tenure in a Korean university? Also, try not to include in your list those who are using an F-4 visa? Why? Should it matter to teaching in a univeristy if you have Korean parents?
Look at the E-1 visa regulation for professors:
| Quote: |
A. The Object of Visa Issuance
This category applies to foreigners who, as qualified individuals specified by the Educational Law, wish to instruct special fields of study....
* In the case of a national or a public university, a foreigner is not permitted to be a full-time professor. |
E-1 Status (Professors), Visa Issuance Procedure
Ministry of Justice, Immigration Bureau [Republic of Korea]
http://www.moj.go.kr/HP/ENG/eng_03/eng_306030.jsp |
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Francis-Pax
Joined: 20 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| Real Reality wrote: |
| Francis-Pax wrote: |
There are many examples such as Andrew Finch who completed his Doctorate in language education from the University of Manchester while teaching in Hong Kong and Korea. He has a tenured position at Kyungppook National University in Daegu. I also know another tenured professor, David Schaffer, who is tenured at Chosun University. He completed a doctorate in linguistics at Chosun University. Both of those guys make enough money and get pretty good respect.
In short, if you work hard and apply yourself, you can find good jobs (not perfect). It is just like anything else.... |
Would you please continue your list of "many examples?" Why not include in your examples only those who are in Korea only on an E-1 visa? Do not include those foreign professors married to Koreans (on an F-2 visa)? Why? Marital status is not a requirement for university positions, right? Or do you believe that one should marry a Korean in order to get tenure in a Korean university? Also, try not to include in your list those who are using an F-4 visa? Why? Should it matter to teaching in a univeristy if you have Korean parents?
Look at the E-1 visa regulation for professors:
| Quote: |
A. The Object of Visa Issuance
This category applies to foreigners who, as qualified individuals specified by the Educational Law, wish to instruct special fields of study....
* In the case of a national or a public university, a foreigner is not permitted to be a full-time professor. |
E-1 Status (Professors), Visa Issuance Procedure
Ministry of Justice, Immigration Bureau [Republic of Korea]
http://www.moj.go.kr/HP/ENG/eng_03/eng_306030.jsp |
If you don't believe what I say, look up these people for yourself. I am not going to waste my time with you. |
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