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| Any change in your opinion over the past year or two? |
| No change, still opposed |
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37% |
[ 6 ] |
| No change, still in favour |
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25% |
[ 4 ] |
| No change, still neutral / undecided |
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6% |
[ 1 ] |
| More in favour now than a year or two before |
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25% |
[ 4 ] |
| Less in favour now than a year or two before |
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6% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 16 |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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 Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: Turkey in the EU (again) |
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Any new thoughts on this in light of the new BTC Pipeline, without which all oil pumped in the Caspian Sea was just about 100% with a Russian monopoly on transport?
Of course, the other option would have been to build a pipeline through Iran. Nice and short, and let Iran get all the revenue. This is exactly what supporters are talking about when they talk about geopolitical benefits of Turkey, which linguistically and culturally gives one an advantage all the way up to the western part of China. I can see why the US is in favour of its ascension.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_Pipeline
For anyone opposed, also note whether you are also opposed to expansion of the EU in general (which would then include opposing Romania and Bulgaria next year). Geographically though, it's hard to make the case that the island in the bottom here is Europe whereas those islands up there to the west are not.
Last edited by mithridates on Thu May 18, 2006 10:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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I lived in Turkey for seven years, from 1998-2005. I have seen the ways in which the process of trying to gain entry in to the EU has been good for Turkey (increased democratization, economic stabilization). I believe that Turkey will also be good for the EU down the road as a source of labor and, given the way its economy is going, as an engine of economic growth. If the oil pipeline adds to Turkey's value to the EU, well enough. But I thought there were good reasons to include it in expansion before.
Just a geographic note. Those islands to the west in the map are largely part of Greece and thus, already part of the EU. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Allowing Turkey into the EU would be a disaster for reasons that I have outlined many times before. |
Turkish entry would be good for Turkey and big business. For the average EU citizen, it would simply mean more Muslim immigrants, and we can all see what a great success that has been. The EU would have a land border with the Arab world, and would be flooded with citizens of such nations. It would result in the end of Europe as we know it.
But then again, I'm against not just further expansion of the EU, but the EU altogether. Hopefully, the row of Turkey gaining entrance will signal its demise. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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As a citizen of an EU country (the UK) I'm most concerned about border security issues. I think a special accomodation with the EU is the most that should be offered rather than full membership. I'm not against further expansion of the EU in theory but certainly favour a massive overhaul and stripping of its powers.
Last edited by jaganath69 on Thu May 18, 2006 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Allowing Turkey into the EU would be a disaster for reasons that I have outlined many times before. |
Turkish entry would be good for Turkey and big business. For the average EU citizen, it would simply mean more Muslim immigrants, and we can all see what a great success that has been. The EU would have a land border with the Arab world, and would be flooded with citizens of such nations. It would result in the end of Europe as we know it.
But then again, I'm against not just further expansion of the EU, but the EU altogether. Hopefully, the row of Turkey gaining entrance will signal its demise. |
What role do you see Britain playing in Europe ideally? Do you support the UKIP or Veritas view of the issue? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| What role do you see Britain playing in Europe ideally? |
The same role that Norway and Switzerland play. I think Europe should be a loose collection of free trading nations, perhaps with a kind of security framework for resolving local conflicts, a la NATO.
What I do not want is European leaders having any say in British domestic policy. The highest court is the land should be the High Court in London, not the ECHR in Strasbourg.
Domestic issues should be decided by the elected representatives of the people at the national level, and that is in direct opposition to what the EU has always been about. Namely creating a federal state. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Mith:
You're map is causing major de-centering of the page. Maybe make it into a link if possible? |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| Geographically though, it's hard to make the case that the island in the bottom here is Europe whereas those islands up there to the west are not. |
Geographically, yes. But culturally these islands and Cyprus are Westernized. Or, to be specific, Hellenized. The islands to the west, in the Aegean are part of Greece proper. You wouldn't say that the US shouldn't be part of NATO because of Hawaii being all the way over in the Pacific, would you?
As long as Turkey remains Muslim I see more bad than good in admitting them into the EU.
http://www.e-grammes.gr/turkman.htm |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:44 am Post subject: ... |
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This is gonna be a dumb question, but who determines whether Turkey gets in?
Does each country cast a vote?
or do the EU citizens collectively vote?
I'm with the latter, have a referendum on it.
That would be democracy. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:13 am Post subject: |
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I'm with the latter, have a referendum on it.
That would be democracy. |
Yes, that would be democracy, but this is the EU, and the plebs can't possibly be trusted to make such a decision. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:31 am Post subject: ... |
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| Yes, that would be democracy, but this is the EU, and the plebs can't possibly be trusted to make such a decision. |
Funny, that's how I feel about the war in Iraq.
If we'd collectively voted to go down that road and voted for war, I'd still have opposed it but would've felt some semblance of democracy and would have little room to blame Bush.
But BigV, you didn't answer the question: Who determines this?
What do most EU citizens think about Turkey?
And if the plebs aren't to trust, then who is?
Their "representatives"? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:39 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
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| Yes, that would be democracy, but this is the EU, and the plebs can't possibly be trusted to make such a decision. |
Funny, that's how I feel about the war in Iraq.
If we'd collectively voted to go down that road and voted for war, I'd still have opposed it but would've felt some semblance of democracy and would have little room to blame Bush.
But BigV, you didn't answer the question: Who determines this?
In the EU, usually the elite.
What do most EU citizens think about Turkey?
Nice holiday destination, good kebabs, but NO to EU entry.
And if the plebs aren't to trust, then who is?
Their "representatives"?
Exactly. However, some countries have stated that they will give their citizens a vote, and this may well stop the Turks entering the EU.
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:10 am Post subject: ... |
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Give me a break.
The Elite?
Holy Salmon Rushdie, I thought you were sane enough to depart from your ramblings and give me a factual answer.
"The Plebs" aren't to be trusted. "The Elite" decides?
Got it. Elvis helps Jello Biafra.
In that case, forget about democracy...
The people have already spoken. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| I'm starting to think that you're a little dense. |
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