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| Any change in your opinion over the past year or two? |
| No change, still opposed |
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37% |
[ 6 ] |
| No change, still in favour |
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25% |
[ 4 ] |
| No change, still neutral / undecided |
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6% |
[ 1 ] |
| More in favour now than a year or two before |
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25% |
[ 4 ] |
| Less in favour now than a year or two before |
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6% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 16 |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:23 am Post subject: ... |
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Right said.
Sarcasm. Sorry.
But, I was really looking for an answer.
In your country:
Does Tony Blair make the decision?
Parliament?
A special commission?
Ali G?
Beckham?
The Queen?
Tom Hanks?
The Spice Girls?
The few who know that Pink Floyd sampled a ManU fight song on one of their albums?
How's that.
Hehehehe.
What a hoot.
Now let's talk about Muslim contraception and why we're all gonna die.
Hohoho. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:37 am Post subject: |
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You're like an annoying 6 year old. Questions, questions, questions!
You were looking for an answer and I gave it to you. The EU is not democratic. More often than not, the political elite make the decisions, and it rarely has anything to do with representing the wishes of the people. When the people do voice their opinion, it is ignored. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 6:11 am Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
| You were looking for an answer and I gave it to you. The EU is not democratic. |
OK, thanks Verne. Thanks for your help!
Other EU-ers, can you explain who makes the decision about Turkey?
Wangja?
Summersomething?
Butterfly?
Supernick?
Sorry that I'm an annoying 6-year-old.
In fact, anyone who knows might help me.
Bulsajo?
BB?
Kuros? |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:33 am Post subject: |
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(Sorry OTOH, didn't get to change the image formatting and now it's too late)
From what little I know of Turkey though, I don't really feel any sense of threat at all. When I look at Turkish newspapers and websites there's nothing that wouldn't be seen in any Western European language: on http://www.gunes.com there's the G�n�n g�zeli (the cute model on the front ever day) and today there's a hot black model wearing very little:
There's http://www.maksimum.com/ and that seems a lot like the sports papers you see here in Korea with a smattering of news, lots of sports and plenty of pictures (hot girl archive here), and just about every time I look up a Turkish word on Google's image search (makes it easier to remember) there as well you usually find er...more scantily-clad people. Add that to its use/necessity in geopolitics (ie no help from Turkey = giving Central Asia to Russia on a silver platter with a big red bow tie) and its secular nature and I see no problem.
Also bigverne, you just posted on Iran and I agree with you on that topic (well, who wouldn't). You do know that without US and Turkish pressure on the BTC pipeline it could have gone straight from the Caspian Sea through Iran and down to the Persian Gulf, don't you? That's a much shorter and easier route, only through one country and no worries about the Azerbaijan-Armenia areas of conflict. Economically it would have made sense to expand on the existing Russian line or build it through Iran instead. Turkey will get some $200 million a year from user fees (goes through three countries so it's split) on that line; had it gone through Iran they could have made half a billion a year on it. You are also aware of the support that Turkey's defense minister (and some other ministers) provided when Iran tried to muscle Azerbaijan around in the Caspian Sea as well, are you not? I just find that time and time again they prove their worth, and no amount of "But...b-but Muslim! But Muslim!" seems to make that go away.
Of course, I know you're opposed to Bulgaria and Romania in 2007 as well since you're opposed to the EU in principle. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 9:39 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You were looking for an answer and I gave it to you. The EU is not democratic. |
OK, thanks Verne. Thanks for your help!
Other EU-ers, can you explain who makes the decision about Turkey?
Wangja?
Summersomething?
Butterfly?
Supernick?
Sorry that I'm an annoying 6-year-old.
In fact, anyone who knows might help me.
Bulsajo?
BB?
Kuros? |
What Bigverne was getting at was so many EU policies are drawn up in Brussels. The people who create the laws and policies are unelected. I believe it is the EU Commisson. There is also the Council of the European Union, which also has legislative power, and is also served by people who are appointed by their respective gov'ts.
The gov't officials that are elected serve in the EU Parliment, which is rather toothless.
So BV's point is the EU is run by an exclusive club of political elites who all have similar backgrounds.
I'm just going by what I've read in the Economist and heard from a handful of Europeans. I realize that was not the full answer you are looking for, but I hope it sheds a little more light on the subject for you.
RE:Turkey being let in, I have no idea what the process is. You'd think there would be a more democratic process towards it than general legislative matters, but one never knows with the EU. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Mith what you posted is of course all true. There are large numbers of Turks, probably more than in any other Muslim nation, who are pretty secular minded and not particularly religious. They are not the ones who will be immigrating on mass to Europe however. Outside Istanbul and Ankara, Turkey is still a pretty religious and conservative place.
Moreover, it isn't just the problem of Turkish migration, but the migration of Arabs and Turkic peoples (who I believe have full rights to Turkish nationality) who will be able to easily enter Europe through Turkey. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| nowhere Man wrote: |
In fact, anyone who knows might help me.
Bulsajo? |
No, I don't know how it is decided (who decides) which countries get admitted into the EU.
Expanding the European Union to include states which are traditionally not European is bound to remain controversial for some time to come.
I'm stating the obvious here, but any changes to the current EU composition are bound to benefit some EU countries while putting others at a disadvantage.
Most people seem to be stuck on the question of whether Turkey is now "European" enough (culturally and/or religiously) to become a part of the European union, but I think that is really a small part of the equation- I'd bet that the economic and political shifts are what the EU ministers are looking at, not the social/cultural ones. That's for the media and the man in the street.
Other than that, I have no comment on anything to do with the composition of the EU because as it stands currently it already seems to be a pretty unwieldy and fractious entity.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/16/news/eu.php |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
Mith what you posted is of course all true. There are large numbers of Turks, probably more than in any other Muslim nation, who are pretty secular minded and not particularly religious. They are not the ones who will be immigrating on mass to Europe however. Outside Istanbul and Ankara, Turkey is still a pretty religious and conservative place.
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Well I'd venture that the bulk of the coastal region of Turkey is pretty secular and not very religous, but yeah, the bulk of migrants that have gone to Germany and elsewhere in the EU are from the interior of the country. Few in Istanbul and its surrounding areas feel compelled to immigrate west because their living standards aren't bad.
I attend a bi-weekly current events discussion in SF, and we've discussed Turkey on a couple occasions in the past 2 months. All 3 Europeans were dead set against Turkey joining. Thing is they all lean towards the left; hell, one even defended North Korea in one debate. Now if THEY don't support Turkey's membership, then I'd say there is no way the general EU population would vote in favor of Turkey joining. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
Mith what you posted is of course all true. There are large numbers of Turks, probably more than in any other Muslim nation, who are pretty secular minded and not particularly religious. They are not the ones who will be immigrating on mass to Europe however. Outside Istanbul and Ankara, Turkey is still a pretty religious and conservative place.
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Well I'd venture that the bulk of the coastal region of Turkey is pretty secular and not very religous, but yeah, the bulk of migrants that have gone to Germany and elsewhere in the EU are from the interior of the country. Few in Istanbul and its surrounding areas feel compelled to immigrate west because their living standards aren't bad.
I attend a bi-weekly current events discussion in SF, and we've discussed Turkey on a couple occasions in the past 2 months. All 3 Europeans were dead set against Turkey joining. Thing is they all lean towards the left; hell, one even defended North Korea in one debate. Now if THEY don't support Turkey's membership, then I'd say there is no way the general EU population would vote in favor of Turkey joining. |
Which countries in Europe? There's a huge difference by country such as Austria where only 10% or so are in favour whereas in Finland it's almost the opposite.
Aren't there 'safeguards' in place right now to keep too many people from the countries that joined in 2004 from immigrating to other countries in the EU?
Then there's also the fact that just being in EU doesn't give one a free pass to anywhere without checks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_treaty
Interesting note on the Schengen treaty though once a country does take part:
| Quote: |
| Previously, a criminal with police in hot pursuit would be safe once they managed to cross the border, but under the agreements of the Schengen Agreement police from one nation can cross national borders to chase their target. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| There's a huge difference by country such as Austria where only 10% or so are in favour whereas in Finland it's almost the opposite. |
There seems to be a pretty strong correlation between countries with large Muslim and/or Turkish populations, and opposition to Turkish entry. Finland actually has a very small Muslim population, due to very sensible immigration laws. They have little experience of the problems that large scale Muslim migration brings, and hence are likely to be more positively predisposed to Turkish entry.
Remember that the Turks were stopped at the gates of Vienna. Obviously, the Austrians have long memories. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| There's a huge difference by country such as Austria where only 10% or so are in favour whereas in Finland it's almost the opposite. |
There seems to be a pretty strong correlation between countries with large Muslim and/or Turkish populations, and opposition to Turkish entry. Finland actually has a very small Muslim population, due to very sensible immigration laws. They have little experience of the problems that large scale Muslim migration brings, and hence are likely to be more positively predisposed to Turkish entry. |
Right. But if Finland is able to change its own laws on immigration despite being in the EU does that not mean that any problems in having too much immigration in any one country lies with the country itself and not with the expansion of the EU?
I would like to see immigration policy centered largely on language and knowledge of the country one wishes to immigrate to - something like the test that the Netherlands has (not sure if it has a linguistic part to it as well). You can see that for sure here in Korea where a guy who only knows the word 외국/waygook and thinks its a slur hears someone say it behind them and turns around to give them a piece of their mind when in reality what they said was 와~나도 외국에 한번 살아 보고 싶네 (wow, I'd like to try living abroad too). People who have no idea what country they're trying to live in shouldn't be allowed to stay unless they have a special needed skill. I also think the Estonian policy of requiring Estonian language for citizenship to also be sensible, as some of the non-Estonian speaking Russian population needs to realize that Estonia's its own country and not a part of the Soviet Union anymore.
It might seem a bit harsh requiring that much for family members of immigrants as well (especially if they're old) but it's the 21st century and it's not hard to visit home anymore when you want to, especially in Europe. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
Which countries in Europe? There's a huge difference by country such as Austria where only 10% or so are in favour whereas in Finland it's almost the opposite.
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2 are germans, 3rd is a Brit. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| But if Finland is able to change its own laws on immigration despite being in the EU does that not mean that any problems in having too much immigration in any one country lies with the country itself and not with the expansion of the EU? |
Yes that is very true. However, if Turkey became part of the EU, its citizens would become EU citizens and eventually would be allowed to move anywhere in Europe. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 8:34 am Post subject: |
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This page on Wikipedia is great. It shows each of the areas that Turkey, Croatia and Macedonia need to work on to get in. I love how everything's presented so straightforwardly there letting me avoid trying to work my way through biased news articles (on either side) in trying to figure out what's actually going on.
For Turkey:
Nothing to adopt: Institutions, other issues.
No major difficulties expected: Enterprise & industrial policy, science & research, customs union, external relations, financial & budgetary provisions
Further efforts needed: Free movement of goods, free movement of capital, intellectual property law, information society & media, basic coolness, education & culture, consumer & health protection, foreign security & defense policy, financial control.
Considerable efforts needed: company law, financial services, transport policy, energy, taxation, economic & monetary policy, statistics, social policy & employment, trans-european networks, Regional Policy & Coordination of Structural Instruments, judiciary & fundamental rights, justice freedom & security.
Very hard to adopt: freedom of movement for workers, Right of Establishment & Freedom to provide Services, competition policy, agricultural & rural development, Food safety, Veterinary & Phytosanitary Policy, fisheries.
Current situation totally incompatible with EU acquis: public procurement, environment.
Oh, here's something I've never seen before. This is interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
This page on Wikipedia is great. It shows each of the areas that Turkey, Croatia and Macedonia need to work on to get in. I love how everything's presented so straightforwardly there letting me avoid trying to work my way through biased news articles (on either side) in trying to figure out what's actually going on.
For Turkey:
Nothing to adopt: Institutions, other issues.
No major difficulties expected: Enterprise & industrial policy, science & research, customs union, external relations, financial & budgetary provisions
Further efforts needed: Free movement of goods, free movement of capital, intellectual property law, information society & media, basic coolness, education & culture, consumer & health protection, foreign security & defense policy, financial control.
Considerable efforts needed: company law, financial services, transport policy, energy, taxation, economic & monetary policy, statistics, social policy & employment, trans-european networks, Regional Policy & Coordination of Structural Instruments, judiciary & fundamental rights, justice freedom & security.
Very hard to adopt: freedom of movement for workers, Right of Establishment & Freedom to provide Services, competition policy, agricultural & rural development, Food safety, Veterinary & Phytosanitary Policy, fisheries.
Current situation totally incompatible with EU acquis: public procurement, environment. |
This is a fair assessment of the situation in Turkey. In a number of the areas where there is still difficulty, I have seen considerable improvement over the time I spent in the country. They are moving in the right direction, but it will still take more time to complete the process.
The Alevis are very interesting. A number of my best friends there are Alevis. A review of the article and the map accompanying it on the distribution of Alevis geographically in Turkey should make some people reconsider the idea that the hinterlands of Turkey are monolithically conservative Islamicist areas. Alevis are a substantial minority throughout the areas East of Ankara, and a trip through these areas is an eye-opening experience in regard to the interplay of the modern and the traditional and the part religion plays in these communities.
Relations between the Alevis and the Sunni majority have not always been smooth, as the article makes clear. To strict Sunnis, the Alevis are anathema, worse than polytheists because they are pretending to be Muslim I've heard said. However, interestingly, the current government of Turkey, which comes out of a Sunni Islamicist tradition, has begun to respond to some Alevi demands for recognition, including revising the school curriculum for religious education to include acknowledgement of different sects of Islam.
Turkey is a complex country (show me one that isn't), certainly not without its faults. I find it frustrating, though, that much of the debate over it in the rest of Europe is taking place through stereotypes and not through real exploration of the country itself. Hopefully this thread will encourage some deeper thinking on the topic for members of this board. |
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