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ajuma
Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: Anywere but Seoul!!
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 Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yu_Bum_suk
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| That is very true. At some hogwans there is absolutely nothing one can do. |
This isn't true. There are a LOT of things you can do. Changing seating is one of the most helpful ways of changing classroom dynamics. Intersperse the talkers with the non-talkers. Change pairs for pairwork. Use negative reinforcement. A group is acting up? Not paying attention? Minus points. The team with the fewest points leaves first. The last team cleans up the room and erases the board before they can leave.
some waygug-in
The most I'm allowed to do is bring in some crosswords or wordsearches. Use these as a group reward for good behavior. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| Hotpants wrote: |
Well, did anyone actually watch the video link?? 
Have you ever noticed that the best teachers also happen to be the ones who are never shouting? When I realised that I don't need to shout to control students, I became much better at my job. Reasoning is much better than a barrage of one-sided insults. |
Yes, I did watch the video. I tried some of these ideas today and indeed they are helpful.......... in classes that will at least listen to me for a few minutes. Thank you for posting it. 
However, some comments on the video. The teacher spoke the same language as the students, therefore she was able to communicate things like lesson objectives to the students in their own language. (So there were no missunderstandings that way) But when you don't speak the students language and they don't know enough English to grasp even the simplest explanation........what then?
I looked at her classroom before his analysis and I would say that I wish my classes were that well behaved. If you multiply all the problems she was having by 10 and then throw in the language barrier, plus students with the attitude that they don't have to do anything except visit with their classmates, plus the cultural barrier, plus a lot of other factors like students arriving whenever they want and disrupting the class.......... then you might start to see what the average hagwan teacher is dealing with. 
The groups I am having trouble with are starting middle school (or soon to be starting) They are too old to do the same things that younger kids are doing and they are "too cool" to study (if you get my drift).
I already know what would work with them is if I could throw away the textbook and do things that they are interested in, but the boss/parents won't allow that. I have tried and been reprimanded for "not using the book". 
I wish I were allowed to do things like move desks around, but the rooms are too small and it really isn't practical. (not to mention the boss would have a fit).
Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts and ideas.
Cheers
Last edited by some waygug-in on Mon May 22, 2006 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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teachingld2004
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: to controll a class |
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ajuma;
I understand what you are sayig, but.....
If you work in a hogwon, and your students do not pay attention, or are rude, there is not much you can do at times.
You can talk until your face is blue, but if the director does not help you out, or just tells the kids "be good", there is nohing you can. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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One other thing.............there is no way in hell that these kids are going to let me tell them where to sit.... I have tried. Some of these kids are quite big and strong. They have wrestled me to the ground on occasion because I wanted them to sing and they wanted their "game", they have litterally ripped the textbook from my hands and then shouted at me,"teacher game".
These are rebelious teenagers (well Korean age anyway) who have spent all day in classes of various sorts. The last thing in the world they want is more ...........sssschhhhooooooolllllllll. I can empathize with them. Korean kids really do spend too much time in school, but that doesn't help me deal with them in class. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
One other thing.............there is no way in hell that these kids are going to let me tell them where to sit.... I have tried. Some of these kids are quite big and strong. They have wrestled me to the ground on occasion because I wanted them to sing and they wanted their "game", they have litterally ripped the textbook from my hands and then shouted at me,"teacher game".
These are rebelious teenagers (well Korean age anyway) who have spent all day in classes of various sorts. The last thing in the world they want is more ...........sssschhhhooooooolllllllll. I can empathize with them. Korean kids really do spend too much time in school, but that doesn't help me deal with them in class. |
That sounds horrible-- you've got quite the power struggle going on there. You're right-- the kids are pretty much running the show. Sounds like you need to put on your steely mask of resolve, dream up some horrific consequences (involving phoning the parents, I imagine) and establish yourself as the authority.
You can't tolerate any physical intimidation from these kids. If you let them get away with it, it's game over. I don't envy you. Remember- no emotion. Clear consequences. Go get 'em tiger! |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Woland wrote: |
Punitive approaches are going to be less successful overall, I think. They actually encourage resistance, both in the immediate context of your class and in terms of long term interest in learning the language. You may eventually get them to sit down, shut up and sullenly obey, but they won't necessarily learn. |
This is absolutely true, and lesson planning and effective teaching follow "the best defense as offense" theory(although that metaphor sounds combative here. However, there are complications at two levels for foreigners in Korea:
Hagweons: The kids are often spoiled and/or had one or two, or a rash of lazy/poor/daft foreign teachers in the past and therefore have very little respect for the native-speaker and some discipline will need to be established by an effective teacher just to get the students in the right mindset to appreciate his teaching. I doubt at your level, W, you have head to deal with these little mongrels but very few of the language institutes for children here create professional environments for their teachers to succeed in. When a teacher does try, they are usually swimming against a tide of precedent and apathy.
Public/Private Schools: By which I mean, "real schools". I think the chances of being taken seriously and appreciated, and effecting quality lessons, are much higher in these institutions. At my last schoool in addition to EAP based writing and reading courses I taught World History and Advanced Composition, so you would think there would be no problems with being taken seriously, however the teachers at the school who were members of the teachers union had a growing fear that native-speakers would soon be taking over their jobs, so some of them actively promoted showing the foreign staff less respect among the girls. So, once again, it took longer to earn respect based on quality teaching than it should have. And at public schools the problems can range from insane schedules to little gangster-kids making each other bleed in the middle of the lecture.
Sometimes it's just necessary to no longer the rod spare. But once the whip has been cracked, you gotta stash it and keep it out of sight.
As a final note, I'd like to give a big shout-out WTF!?!?! To:
| some waygug-in wrote: |
Some of these kids are quite big and strong. They have wrestled me to the ground on occasion because I wanted them to sing and they wanted their "game", they have litterally ripped the textbook from my hands and then shouted at me,"teacher game".
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Are you kidding me? In the words of Billy Madison: "That's assault bruthah." That's just out of bounds and can't be allowed to go on. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| ajuma wrote: |
Yu_Bum_suk
| Quote: |
| That is very true. At some hogwans there is absolutely nothing one can do. |
This isn't true. There are a LOT of things you can do. Changing seating is one of the most helpful ways of changing classroom dynamics. Intersperse the talkers with the non-talkers. Change pairs for pairwork. Use negative reinforcement. A group is acting up? Not paying attention? Minus points. The team with the fewest points leaves first. The last team cleans up the room and erases the board before they can leave.
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Yes it is true. At my old hogwan I tried to draw up a seating plan with a KT for a very rowdy (just rowdy, not evil) elementary school class and she just ended up chucking it saying that wasn't a good idea. She was probably worried boys would complain about having to sit next to girls or whatever and shit would roll downhill. I was told not to keep kids late. The plus and minus points thing worked to a point with little kids but not older ones.
Tell me this, why is it that now I have very little trouble controlling middle school classes of 26-34 whether there's a co-teacher or not, but at hogwan there were a couple of middle school classes, including one of four girls, that no one could control, not even the KTs? Maybe I've become a little better at classroom management but it's 90% down to the institution.
Let me rephrase - at some hogwans there is almost nothing one can do. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="flotsam"]
| Woland wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
Some of these kids are quite big and strong. They have wrestled me to the ground on occasion because I wanted them to sing and they wanted their "game", they have litterally ripped the textbook from my hands and then shouted at me,"teacher game".
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Are you kidding me? In the words of Billy Madison: "That's assault bruthah." That's just out of bounds and can't be allowed to go on. |
I had a grade two middle school bully (who was surprisingly strong for a skinny teenage girl) try to wrestle the teacher's book out of my hands in the middle of a lesson. I proved a little stronger than her friends, whom she'd make do her Chinese and math homework during their hogwan English lesson. I had almost forgotten about that until some waygug-in's post, as I just cannot imagine something like that happening at my current school. |
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simone
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Now Mostly @ Home
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Red and Yellow cards, a la FIFA, worked wonders for me.
Bad student? Show them the yellow card. They repeat it? They're outtahere.
No explanation necessary, especially in a world cup year. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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In fairness, I have to say that it was all in fun.........well sort of.
I didn't get angry, if I had I'm sure things would have been a lot worse.
I could handle one at a time, but 2.....?
What I finally did was tickle them until they let go of me 
Then I grabbed the one kids arms, spread them wide and wrapped them around the other kid........saying, "I love you".
The kids were so embarrassed they went and sulked for the rest of class.
The book incident happened this past Friday.......the oldest and biggest girl in the class ripped the book from my hands.
I didn't get angry then either........but I sure couldn't figure out how to get the class doing anything productive. I finally gave them a word search/spelling worksheet and let them play cards after. The other teachers at the school are having the same trouble....so it's not just me.
I have to agree that a punitive approach isn't the best motivational method. I just have to find something that will catch their interest and then there is no more need for punishments or anger. I suppose I will just have to go against school policy and do something totally unrelated to the textbook.
Don't ya just love haggies? |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| flotsam wrote: |
| The kids are often spoiled and/or had one or two, or a rash of lazy/poor/daft foreign teachers in the past and therefore have very little respect for the native-speaker and some discipline will need to be established by an effective teacher just to get the students in the right mindset to appreciate his teaching. I doubt at your level, W, you have head to deal with these little mongrels but very few of the language institutes for children here create professional environments for their teachers to succeed in. When a teacher does try, they are usually swimming against a tide of precedent and apathy. |
It's true in my current job I deal only with interested adults, Flotsam, although they aren't always easy (lots of begging for extensions as finals approach right now). But, like so many others, I have a past. It doesn't include working in hakweons here, but does cover other difficult groups of students in different places.
I like to think of myself as an idealist who deals with reality. I think we should plan for and work to create ideal situations. That's where the lessson planning and preparatory and follow up work come in. I do think that a lot of that will reduce problems.
At the same time, I know that there are days when the plan doesn't work, when the students are sullen and resistant, even days when things get as bad as described in some posts on this thread. And on those days, the role of the teacher as the authority in the room has to be maintained. I held myself to certain standards that I developed over the years when I had to deal with these kinds of problems:
1. Never raise your voice. Being calm yourself will help keep disorder from spreading and will maintain respect from the majority of students you want to keep on your side.
2. Never get physical with a student. Even when students strike out, remember rule 1, stay cool, and use your authority, which is what they are striking out against, to isolate them and remove them from the room.
I know that I am helped in this by the fact that I am a big guy and have a fearsome glower. I know that many teachers don't have these advantages, but in any case, I think aggressive physical action should always be a last resort and as minimal as possible - only what's necessary to end the problem. Obviously, if you have to defend yourself, you have to.
3. Always apologize to the other students for the disruption of their learning and get them back on task as quickly as possible. If you can, find a way to reward them for their patience because that is their support for you.
4. As soon as possible, once things have cooled down, talk to the students who have been a problem one on one (not in a group). Let them know what the problem was, why you responded the way you did, how it is going to effect them, and that you will do exactly the same thing (plus any additional steps) if it happens again.
If your students are old enough, one thing you can do with them on the first day of class is have them write the rules for classroom behavior. (They'll come up with about the rules you would.) Post them up or give everyone a copy. This should give them some ownership of the rules and classroom and help build peer pressure for enforcing them. When disruption occurs you can point to the rules and remind the students, "you wrote these and agreed to follow them." This will do the trick in a lot of cases.
Some people may find this approach too idealistic, but it has worked well for me over the years in real classrooms, through students calling me a bad teacher in class (because I didn't let him ramble on), a student having a mental breakdown in class, and a fight breaking out between two students, among other things.
Problems aren't going to go away, but we can minimize them. Preparation is the bigger part of the battle, but sometimes you gotta maintain order the hard way. |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Woland wrote: |
Problems aren't going to go away, but we can minimize them. Preparation is the bigger part of the battle, but sometimes you gotta maintain order the hard way. |
Oui. The bottom line for sure.
And:
| Woland wrote: |
But, like so many others, I have a past.
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Does this imply more than just teaching experience...? |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| flotsam wrote: |
| Woland wrote: |
But, like so many others, I have a past.
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Does this imply more than just teaching experience...? |
Sorry, saving those stories for my autobiography. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Can anyone spot the control feak? Hmm....
One poster said there's always something you can do at times... completely disagree. Finding it can be hard, but it's there. As others pointed out, it has more to do with your overall planning and teaching than a given moment.
No time to really get into this... maybe later! |
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I_Am_Wrong
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: whatever
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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This is an interesting and valuable conversation that I'd like to get going again.
I've been having similar problems as the OP with some of my middle school grade 2 classes. It appears that with a lot of the grade 2 classes, I eased up too quickly and now they seem to have an idea that the boundaries for behaviour are WIDE!
It's really terrible to teach a grade 1 class that is eating out of your hands and then, next class, you teach a grade 2 class that won't do a single thin and won't listen to a single thing. I've been trying so many different things with these grade 2 classes and still haven't gotten far.
I'm trying to be firm and fair with the classes and working to get them to understand what bahavior is acceptable and what is unacceptable. It's proving to be difficult. One thing I'm working on is providing more reward/praise with emotion and dealing with disruptions without emotion. In addition, I'm trying to avoid put on a show of anger as it seems students will continue to be disruptive in order to watch the show. |
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