Korean Job Discussion Forums

[simone]

There�s a huge falsehood being spun over and over again in Korea. It�s the combination of wishful thinking, catering to the dreams of customers, and the mercenary tendencies of Native-Speaker teachers. Back when I taught, I tacitly contributed to it � encouraging people to study English �continuously� for years and years.

The Big Lie is that �if people put in enough effort and have enough English classes, their English will be good enough.� We don�t qualify this any further. Good enough for what? This is a disservice to EFL students.

I recall back when I was doing a TV show � it was based on the TEPS test � (Test of English Proficiency Seoul National University). The scripts were ridden with Konglish, and me and my other foreign co-host would debate at length with the writers, directors and producers, that (insert Konglish or error here) was not what we really say! The conversations would end with everyone feeling bad, us two foreigners incredulous that we were so mis-trusted that they would take a book written by a Korean over our combined 50+ years of Native Speaker-dom�. The Koreans would feel bad that even English graduates from SEOULDAE weren�t �good enough.�

If we spoke the honest truth, that often even Native Speakers aren�t �good enough�, that they likely will never be �good enough� to write successful international advertising copy, name a store, or write a world-famous poem in English, Native Speaker teachers would lose customers, surely. Why keep paying and paying, time, money and effort when your results are at best, limited?

Because being able to have a business meeting in English is more than good enough. Traveling internationally on your own, without seeing ten European countries in ten days because that�s the bus schedule � that�s great. To develop friendships with non-Koreans, where you can bring your whole self to the relationship, and not just ask them if their food is delicious and if they knew that Korea has four seasons, well, that�s precious.

Back when I used to do editing and voice acting, I�d be given a page and told to �fix any errors.� We all know that the path of least resistance is to fix any OBVIOUS errors, but if they debate any changes with you, the editor, they usually are permitted to pass. When I first got to Korea, I wanted to be meticulous, thinking that the quality of my work would speak for itself � instead I lost job after job because the �English expert� who had hired me felt bad. So I started playing the game, picking my fights, and boosting the egos. I because more successful than I hoped.

Now that I�m in the business world, though, I have to deal with the end result of this. I�m given advertising copy that has already gone to press, and my only suggestion is that the fliers be burnt. (If they�re put in a closet somewhere, someone might find them, and god forbid, USE them.) �But we worked so hard on them.� Doesn�t matter � they�re not good enough. They knew I was being hired, they could have waited a week for me to get back from my visa run. They could have paid for a Native Speaker proofreader � but they believed that it wasn�t necessary.

Please, people. Don�t feed the lie. In the short term, you might lose a proofreading job to a schmuck who boosts egos, but in the end, they�ll come to the realization that they�ll always need a native speaker around to check any serious English materials they�re investing in. We might have less Konglish to laugh at in the end, but when given a choice between a happy fiction and a hard truth, please speak the truth.

[sadsac]

I am cruel and inhuman. You ask me to read it and correct it, that's exactly whats going to happen. A student's brother asked me to go through his essays for his application to a masters program in the US. I got 21 pages, he got 4 back that had nil corrections. I prefer not to correct writing.

[ddeubel]

[Qinella]

[Captain Corea]

When it comes to students... I pick my battles. One day might be punctuation, another might be something else.

In businesses though, I always hit hard.

[TheFonz]

sadsac wrote:

[kimchikowboy]

Yes, correcting Korean English can be tedious. If Koreans didn't need correcting, however, they would not be in the classroom (or in the case of the OP, she would not have her current job).
This is from something I read a short while ago:

[Lemonade]

I don't expect my students to have perfect grammar skills. However, their sentences need to make sense. I need to understand what on earth they are talking about. Also, I insist that students not plagairize as this is a serious problem in Korea. It's amazing how many of my university students are first learning how to quote in my classes. Sometimes I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with students who are so use to doing things their own way. I have classes where each student is required to write over 200 sentences without any special aids to assist them. The semester is almost over and I'm seeing dramatic improvements in their writing, reading comprehension, listening and speaking skills. They might hate me in the end but at least they can say their English is much better... for the ones who aren't cheating that is.

[Demophobe]

I've found that many "correction" situations become total re-writes.

I shy away from any such activities now, as first, I feel bad re-writing their hard work, (and there is no denying that no matter how many errors, they do indeed try), second, I find that activity absolutely, mind-numbingly tedious, and finally, I am tired of seeing the same mistakes again and again.

However, if and when I do agree to do it, it gets the full treatment, regardless of the consequences. Yeah, I've bruised a few egos, but they apparently needed it.

Bart: (putting up a sign) "Kick in the butt:$2.00"

Milhouse: How's business?

Bart: Terrible. People don't know what's good for them.

[some waygug-in]

It depends on the student, I suppose. I try to be meticulous when I can, but if it's a kid's writing assignment....they usually don't give a rip anyway.

If it's an adult student....that's different.

Last year, one of my conversation classes convinced me to correct their writing assignments ....once a week or so. At first I balked at the idea, after all this was not part of the class...........it would be a free service.
But then I remembered how lazy my students were......... usually only 1 or 2 students ever handed in assignments.

There was one student in particular, whose spoken Engish was at the top of the class. She really wanted to learn and improve her writing skills, but her assignments...............OMG! I tried to correct them as painlessly as possible, sometimes I would correct them with her because I couldn't understand what she was trying to write and I needed clarification.
She was devastated at first, and I had to try and tell her not to worry about it so much...........even native speakers are not the best writers at times. I'm not so sure I convinced her, but she did keep handing in assignments and her writing did show some improvement over time.


One trick I learned from my Korean teacher: get them to re-write the assignment after the corrections are made. Then get them to read it out loud at the next class. It really helps to reinforce the structures and because they are speaking their own thoughts, so the context is well known to them.

[simone]

[quote="ddeubel"]

[seoulsista]

What you say in your story about your coworkers at Seoul University is a little different than the situation at a kiddie hagwon or public school. Those kids still have hope that someday they can speak really well. They aren't old enough or their parents in tune enough to think long and hard about whether they will ever attain true fluency. Besides hagwons aren't for learning anyway.

But when you talk about adults who have been studying for years that's another story. Most of my Korean co-workers have pretty atrocious English skills. But I'm not going to spend my time correcting them either in writing or speech. If there's one thing I have learned here (in the land of the rising sun) it's that keeping harmony is more important than getting things done. This isn't something that I will take home with me, but it's important to remember when asking the question "why."

[Real Reality]

[LETTERS to the editor] Plagiarism pervasive in school system
by Faith Fishley, JoongAng Daily (April 17, 2006)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200604/17/200604172232164809900090109013.html

Ghostwriters investigated
... The head of the company hired ghostwriters of doctoral degrees, often college undergraduates, and let them write master's theses for customers, the prosecution said. According to the prosecution's investigation, most of the fake theses passed examinations. The universities that administered those examinations reportedly included top universities in Seoul.

A professor who was part of an examination committee that accepted several ghostwritten theses said, "The quality of the theses was poor, but I didn't want to disqualify them. I never knew they were written by others."
by Kang Joo-an, JoongAng Daily (March 17, 2003)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200303/17/200303170205221879900090409041.html

[PRagic]

Have to side with Simone on this topic for sure. I've done PR/IR material for practically every big Korean conglomerate out there over the years, and it's mostly crap when it comes to the table. The top-5 usually have pretty clean copy, but even their fluff needs a proof before taping.

Shockingly surprising how little attention is paid to materials that will directly impact a company's international image and brand awareness.

So much the better, I guess; we get paid to clean it up and put it out.

[periwinkle]

I just edited some English textbooks that are going to print soon. The target market is elementary/middle school kids. They had done a really good job (the writers were native speakers). However, some of the examples that the translators used were questionable in regards to subject matter. The first couple of books I didn't say anything, because I was asked to edit grammar, and they didn't say anything about subject matter, specifically. The last book had a reference to the usage of himself/herself/ themselves. 2 of the examples were innocuous, but then I read "He killed himself" as an example. I gave them some alternate examples for that one. I noticed some of the writers are a bit naughty: "Jill, why are you so wet?" LOL