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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: |
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Bobster, I don't care how you view the situtation and have no intention of re-engaging you on this topic 3-4 weeks after the fact just because you've thought about it some more and have more to say. I don't care that you have more to say since I have already pointed out that you have shown yourself to believe that I have no right to an opinion.
You don't seem to get that- at some point in this thread you stopped arguing about what is right and what is best and started arguing about who has a right to an opinion and who doesn't.
As I've already pointed out, by your own standards you have less of a right to an opinion than many others in the CE forum.
So *beep* you very much and have a nice day. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| Do I care what your thoughts are? No. |
| Quote: |
| Bobster, I don't care |
As I said : you have very little reason to care. Canadians who support this war amuse me. You amuse me. Especially with your refusal to discuss WHY you ask another country to bear a sacrifice you yourself do not bear.
I gave you a chance to state unequivocably that you would be willing for your own country to to bear the same sacrifice. You've made no such statement, which leads me to believe to you would rather someone else do it. Yet you find it very easy to go online and ask that we continue the war.
Well, sure, why wouldn't you?
I haven't had to think hard for several weeks about what to say. I have been saying the same thing all along, and you have been dodging it all along.
Canadians who support the continuation of this war are doing the easiest thing imaginable - they are asking someone else to do pay a price they themselves will never have to pay. This whole altercation between you and I centers around this very salient point and you have danced and jumped and wiggled - but you will simply not look it in the face.
Answer it. If this war is so wonderful and wise and good, why isn't everyone getting in there? Why isn't YOUR country?
Answer : It isn't wonderful, it isn't wise and it isn't good.
So, WHY do you ask MY country take the hit, if you think it is so nice. And once again, where do you get the nerve to ask us to make that sacrifice? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 9:31 am Post subject: |
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so Bob, you can't offer an opinion on any war that the United States is not involved in, according to your logic.
Dumb. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| so Bob, you can't offer an opinion on any war that the United States is not involved in, according to your logic. |
Never said tbat. But it would be wrong of me to advocate that another country commit themselves to sacrifice in such a war - I have no opinion to offer, for instance, about all the Australians currently on their way to East Timor, and I would not encourage a military move like that unless I were willing to send my own country in similar numbers. This is what I'm talking about.
Bulsajo has had plenty of opportunity to say that he'd like Canada to get as heavily embroiled in Iraq as the US is. He hasn't, and by now I expect he won't.
To me, that sort of, um, sucks. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
[ish. When people so quickly go into the realm of personal insult, it's a sign to me that I have made a point that cannot be refuted or engaged by means of the heart or the mind.
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In that case, judging from the number of personal insults you have hurled towards me, it is a sign to me that I have made a great many points against you "that cannot be refuted or engaged by means of the heart or the mind." |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
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Bulsajo, you go get Mr Harper to put 100,000 more Canadians in Iraq, and get him to put your economy in hock for the next 30 years - you do that, sir, and THEN come back and tell me staying in Iraq is a good idea. |
First off, we do not HAVE 100,000 soldiers to put into Iraq. The total number including reserves is 84000. Nor do we have the finances to maintain a standing army of the amount you suggested. Even if we had the men and the money, we have neither the logistical capacity, nor the equipment needed to outfit and transport these men over there.
No wonder Mr. Bulsajo has lost patience with you. What you are proposing is a impossibility both statistically and otherwise. Nothing like setting up impossible conditions for one team and then asking them to play by those rules. Sorry, not interested. But since you like questions here are a couple for you. Would you rather fight the terrorists in Iraq or wait until they come over to your homeland? And do you really believe that leaving Iraq would end terrorism against U.S. interests and the U.S. homeland?
As for nothing at stake, we do have troops both in Afganistan and Iraq (11 Canadians soldiers have been killed so far in the former)
Since we are shedding our blood and spending money and lives in YOUR war, we are entitled to a say. And the Canadian soldiers in Iraq have far more right to a say than you do, since they are making more of a sacrifice. They are fighting for YOUR country, something you are not doing. That entitles them to have an opinion. As for me since my countrymen are fighting over there, that entitles me to a say as much as you have. And if you don't agree, tough.
We are doing what we can with limited finances, resources, and very limited interest in the military as a career option
And in the end it is your MORAL responsibility . Your country has made Iraq a hotbed of terrorism. Pulling out now would compound the mistake as leaving Iraq to the terrorists will come back to hurt us. It is very likely that letting Iraq lapse fall under the control of terrorists (and those with a grudge because we've killed their comrades-in-arms) will be a grave mistake as it could one day be responsible for financing a terrorist group to smuggle nuclear weapons in the U.S or Canada and detonate them there.
So you can bloody well take responsibility and stay on until the job is done. You've (generic you) made a mess, now you have to fix it. That's what adults do Bob, they don't run away from their mistakes. They admit responsibility and set about fixing it. Clear up this mess, NOW. |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 5:19 am Post subject: |
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If this war is so wonderful and wise and good, why isn't everyone getting in there? Why isn't YOUR country?
Answer : It isn't wonderful, it isn't wise and it isn't good.
So, WHY do you ask MY country take the hit, if you think it is so nice? |
Nice to see, nice to hold, but once broken considered sold...? |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
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If this war is so wonderful and wise and good, why isn't everyone getting in there? Why isn't YOUR country?
Answer : It isn't wonderful, it isn't wise and it isn't good.
So, WHY do you ask MY country take the hit, if you think it is so nice? |
Nice to see, nice to hold, but once broken considered sold...? |
I already pointed this out to him (re-phrased less eloquently, to be sure) and he chose to ignore it.
Maybe it's just me though- he won't listen to me in particular- because I hold an opinion he disagrees with?
Or because I'm not American?
And since you're not American either, his response to your post should be of interest. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Bulsajo has had plenty of opportunity to say that he'd like Canada to get as heavily embroiled in Iraq as the US is. He hasn't, and by now I expect he won't. |
Re-read the thread Bob.
Here are some of the things I've said on this thread, and you can dig out others if you'd like:
| Bulsajo wrote: |
The US wrecked many opportunities to rebuild this country through poor planning, lack of foresight and fecklessness, so yes I expect the US to remain in Iraq for quite some time to come.
And I suspect that more than a few lefties would be happy that Iraq is left in squalor and hopelessness as long as it proves their theories that their domestic adversaries are satan incarnate. Bobster, I hope you are not one of those. |
| Bulsajo wrote: |
But Bobster, the govt of your country created this mess. That can't be wished away. A unilateral pull out will not end it....
...That you cannot see how this affects more than just your country is at best myopic and at worst willfully ignorant. you can't simply disconnetc things which are already interconnected. |
| Bulsajo wrote: |
To make myself clear, I'm not "for" "the war", I'm for the reconstruction.
US troops remaining in Iraq is by far the lesser evil at this point.
And I would support Canadian troops as well as the RCMP and CIDA in Iraq to this end (reconstruction).
It is in everyone's best interest that Iraq not fail and remain a lawless extremist hotbed
(look at what happened when Lebannon fell apart, then imagine it on a much larger scale),
a giant smoking hole- a political vaccuum smack-dab in the centre of an already violent and divisive region filled with valuable natural resources,
or an Iranian-client state.
Invading Iraq was a mistake, but so would leaving it 'as is'.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
And it's funny (in a sad way) to see leftists suddenly turning to balance sheets for justification;
you know if conservatives tried to make a point of fact on finances,
the left would jump all over them and accuse them of ignoring the human costs, suffering,
and other financial intangibles etc. and heartlessly thinking only of the bottom line.
To hear some of them now exclaiming "oh my god! the cost!" is somewhat surreal... |
Last edited by Bulsajo on Fri May 26, 2006 7:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:21 am Post subject: ... |
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Let's include Canadian actions. How about Arar?
And let's include the whole picture:
How about Gitmo?
How about torture?
How about illegal killings? |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| And since you're not American either, his response to your post should be of interest. |
Actually, I didn't intend to be a third wheel on your and his little thing here. But it's my honest opinion: if Country A breaks Country B unprovoked, for either good reasons or (in this case) boneheaded stupid and fraudulent reasons, I believe they have a moral responsibility to do what they can to make things better for the people of Country B.
Though it's looking like the Americans may be incapable of actually making things better, that doesn't mean they aren't obligated to try - because they started it - until it's absolutely clear that leaving would mean certain improvement for Iraqis. That day may soon be coming.
But for now, leaving and staying are both bad options. When Bob writes about how it's bad for the Americans to stay - high social and economic costs, creating more enemies, etc, he's exactly right. But when others talk about the disaster (Taliban II) that would certainly fill the void if the Americans left, they're also correct.
This impossible situation is the legacy of the not-looking-so-well-thought-out-in-hindsight 2003 invasion. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:42 am Post subject: |
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Yes sorry, i didn't mean to drag you or anyone else into this sorry mess, but the convergence of thoughts and their repetition warranted a response me.
Or so I thought.
Maybe that's not the case.
Probably that's not the case.
All Bob and I are doing now is repeating ourselves at each other.
We should both shut up and listen to what others have to say on the subject. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:59 am Post subject: ... |
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| How about Arar? |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
| Though it's looking like the Americans may be incapable of actually making things better, that doesn't mean they aren't obligated to try - because they started it - until it's absolutely clear that leaving would mean certain improvement for Iraqis. That day may soon be coming. |
My feeling for a while now is that that day has long passed. Right now, the current American regime is the biggest obstacle to peace in the ME.
| Quote: |
| But for now, leaving and staying are both bad options. |
Leaving is the best option for America. If other countries, like Canada, think the fight is worth pursuing, let them take up the slack.
| Quote: |
| When Bob writes about how it's bad for the Americans to stay - high social and economic costs, creating more enemies, etc, he's exactly right. But when others talk about the disaster (Taliban II) that would certainly fill the void if the Americans left, they're also correct. |
The longer this thing goes on, the more I become a pre Roosevelt isolationist. Other countries' problems are other countries' problems. Bush effed up bigtime with this whole adventure, and why America needs to pay for his blunders even one minute longer is a bigger mystery to me than the tripartate yet unitary nature of God, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Bulsajo wrote:
| Quote: |
| We should both shut up and listen to what others have to say on the subject. |
Yeah, I'm willing to do that, but I'm still waiting to hear that you are willing to bear the brunt of thousands of your troops killed over this and your economy smashed for the next few decades. Because that is what you wish for your neighbors to the south as you encourage this madness to continue.
Once again, as you recommend this thing to continue, are you willing to make the same sacrifices for it? Naw, I didn't think so. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Because I don't see the same outcomes as you.
But then you tell me I can't have an opinion anyway, or that my opinion is wrong because I'm not an American, so what's the point?
I've made my thoughts in this thread clear.
I won't type them again so feel free to re-read the thread.
I stop here.
Ciao. |
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