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Homer
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 Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Don't know about you alex...but my B.A. was damn hard work. No one paid for me. I took on loans and paid them back.
My teachers college was also hard work as was my M.A.
Does a B.A. make you better than another person?
Not really.
However it is the required criteria for a visa. It also requires some amount of financial sacrifice for many so yes I can understand why some people would be bothered by illegals reaping the rewards. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Gimme a break! |
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| jmbran11 wrote: |
| Teaching English without the proper stamp is hardly akin to rape, murder, or even theft. You assume it's fraud, but what if no claim is ever made to the hagwon owner or the parents? Then, it's just someone choosing to hire an visaless person because they don't want to deal with someone like you. |
Actually it's more likely the hogwan owner simply doesn't want to pay a fair wage, taxes, or pension benefits. And you're mistaken, because in many cases when someone is caught working illegally the hogwan gets fined heavily as well.
And as I pointed out above, the issue is violating the immigration law, not the teaching. The teaching is secondary. If illegals could make more money hairdressing, telemarketing or doing something else, they'd be doing it.
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| All laws are not good laws. I suppose you would turn in people who helped slaves escape too, just to prove what a freakin' moral citizen you are. After all, that was illegal, so it must be very, very bad! |
No, true, but to turn your point around, having a law against working on a tourist visa is hardly akin to the Nuremburg Laws. Most developed countries have a law that states you cannot come into the country and earn money on a tourist visa, or earn money without being legally qualified to work in the country. It's hardly a civil rights violation, and it's not that difficult to get a work visa.
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| The OP didn't ask if skirting the law was immoral; it asked if snitching on someone made one a rat ba$tard. And it does! |
No, the OP asked if you could make a million turning in an illegal, would you do it. And a lot of people have absolutely no problem with doing so.
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| Get a spine. People who take a risk do so at their own risk. They are not responsible for immigration's "hoops." |
But that's the whole point, isn't it. People who take a risk do so at their own risk. And part of the risk now is that they will be turned in and deported in order to earn a reward. If somebody is going to take the risk - by their own free will - to work illegally and take the chance of getting caught...how do I owe it to them NOT to turn them in? Who are they to me? It's not going to change my life if they get deported. ** shrug **
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| Happy people don't sit around thinking about how others are getting things unfairly. They are too busy actually enjoying life. Maybe you should go and try it, if you can spare a few minutes from your pulpit. |
You're missing the point. The paperwork is becoming more and more onerous to get one's visa processed, PRECISELY because there have been so many illegals in the past - people forging diplomas, working on tourist visas, etc. It's like you take the subway every day and just flash your card on the turnstile...and then suddenly one day Seoul Subway makes you submit your fingerprints and a DNA test because so many people have been jumping the turnstiles, not paying. We haven't done anything to the illegals, it's them making life more difficult for us.
So screw them. If the opportunity arises to bust one and pocket some extra money, I'm perfectly happy to do it. |
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CoolTeach
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Location: Back in the USSR
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: Kick'em to the curb. |
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gf
Last edited by CoolTeach on Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Gimme a break! |
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And yet, still, NO ONE has answered my simple questions....
When is it acceptable to break the properly enacted laws of a duly elected government in a democratic country?
When is a crime not a crime?
When should you report a suspected crime (presumption of innocence here)?
Sorry guys.... this is NOT a shades of grey issue.... and I am not standing on a pulpit.
Do the crime... do the time....
and be fully aware that I have NO problem turning you in and I don't need any financial reward to do so.
this all comes back to the 3 choices....
live with the laws... or pay the price when you don't.
change the laws... lobby the government for change....
or leave.... PICK ONE
There are other options besides breaking any law... and it doesn;t matter what the law is or who the victim may or may not be...
The question was NOT .. should privates be legal or should teachers be qualified? Want changes... that's what lobby groups and elections are all about.
Those are side issues that have NOTHING to do with the original question. |
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jacl
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:55 am Post subject: Re: Gimme a break! |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
And yet, still, NO ONE has answered my simple questions....
When is it acceptable to break the properly enacted laws of a duly elected government in a democratic country?
When is a crime not a crime?
When should you report a suspected crime (presumption of innocence here)?
Sorry guys.... this is NOT a shades of grey issue.... and I am not standing on a pulpit.
Do the crime... do the time....
and be fully aware that I have NO problem turning you in and I don't need any financial reward to do so.
this all comes back to the 3 choices....
live with the laws... or pay the price when you don't.
change the laws... lobby the government for change....
or leave.... PICK ONE
There are other options besides breaking any law... and it doesn;t matter what the law is or who the victim may or may not be...
The question was NOT .. should privates be legal or should teachers be qualified? Want changes... that's what lobby groups and elections are all about.
Those are side issues that have NOTHING to do with the original question. |
Well, do whatever you fucking like then. |
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crystal
Joined: 04 May 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| depends on the illegal activity - I would have no problem with someone doing privates on the side, they are just trying to raise some extra cash and have a proper visa to be here in the first place. I don't agree with people teaching with no visa though, it undermines the whole point of the visa application process and makes it harder for people who do actually want to work legally because of all the crackdowns and checks. If you want to teach here you need a degree - there are plenty of places you can go teach if you don't have a degree, why not choose one of those places. As for those with false degrees - they are the worst, fake qualifications are worse than presenting no qualifications, get a degree and come back in 3/4 years time. If you want to live somewhere then you need to abide by the laws, you can't just pick and choose which laws you are going to obey and which you are not, it's not your country and the consequences here are higher - fine, deportation. Would i report them though, probably not - what goes around comes around, they will get found out eventually |
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Peter Jackson
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: Who gives a rat's a$$ |
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Sure some people do privates...some people are here illegally. Does it affect me? Not in the least. My job is secure. I am happy with my salary. If the "evil private teachers" RUIN Korea for the rest of us (is that even possible?) I can teach somewhere else.
Buyer beware, indeed. Who is really being hurt by illegal teachers?
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Gideon
Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: |
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I too have worked damn hard to get my degree.. during my studies i had 2 part time jobs and a 3 month old son, not to mention a mountain of debt.. so yes its was very hard to get my degree and at times i wanted to quit but i fought my way to the end..
I have a B.A. Am i proud .. YES i am because of it was a very difficult time in my life to juggle both uni and my son.. but i did it..
having that said i still wouldnt rat on someone whose working illegally..
um finished with this thread.. |
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Tarheel13
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: I'd only rat on them if it benefited me... |
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| Heh, let's be real. If there was a dollar to be made for you, wouldn't you rat on him. Come on. Tell the truth. If we all took a poll, I figure the Americans would rat most, followed by the Brits, Canadians, Aussies and Kiwis in that order. |
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TheFonz
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: North Georgia
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Tarheel13 wrote:
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| Heh, let's be real. If there was a dollar to be made for you, wouldn't you rat on him. Come on. Tell the truth. If we all took a poll, I figure the Americans would rat most, followed by the Brits, Canadians, Aussies and Kiwis in that order. |
I wouldn't rat someone out for what the OP proposed. Why would I want to stick my nose in someone elses business. All these "concerned upright citizens" are actually tools who are unhappy with themselves. I imagine these same self-righteous people think smoking pot is immorally wrong. 
Oh and comparing Enron to this is incredibly stupid. The Enron scandal bankrupted thousands upon thousands of people. Thats a little different from pretending to have a college degree or teaching a couple of privates. Thats like me comparing raping someone to jaywalking. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Sympathy for illegeal teachers? |
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| John Henry wrote: |
So, what if you could catch a reward of mmm...one million won for an anonymous tip about an illegeal teacher? Would you do it? What if the guy was a real tool?
I personally don't feel much sympathy for someone that gets caught teaching illegally. They (should) know the seriousness of the penalty. They are choosing to do something illegeal. I worked hard to get my degree, why should they be able to cheat?
ALthough, in the past, I've had some buddies/acquaintences that I knew were illegeal, and I didn't say sheyat. BUT, if there was some dumbass that I wanted gone, or if I could take a stab at a dirty wongjangnim, I'd probably do it for some dough.
What do you think? |
It's none of my business. If a school doesn't take the necessary measures to prevent an illegal from working at the respective school, then that's their own fault. If schools and businesses actually screened their applicants, illegals would stop coming here to teach. Simple as that. There is a simple solution yet none of these places choose to implement it. |
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alexh
Joined: 13 May 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Sympathy for illegeal teachers? |
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Did the people who took offense to my remarks about how easy it is to get a degree not read the (Kudos to those who worked to stay afloat) remark. I'm not saying there aren't people who had to work fulltime to put themselves through school. But the majority of people who went to college went on loans or mom and dad's money, partied all night and went to class with a hangover. Don't tell me that's not the majority of people's first two years of college going to school fulltime!
| cubanlord wrote: |
| John Henry wrote: |
So, what if you could catch a reward of mmm...one million won for an anonymous tip about an illegeal teacher? Would you do it? What if the guy was a real tool?
I personally don't feel much sympathy for someone that gets caught teaching illegally. They (should) know the seriousness of the penalty. They are choosing to do something illegeal. I worked hard to get my degree, why should they be able to cheat?
ALthough, in the past, I've had some buddies/acquaintences that I knew were illegeal, and I didn't say sheyat. BUT, if there was some dumbass that I wanted gone, or if I could take a stab at a dirty wongjangnim, I'd probably do it for some dough.
What do you think? |
It's none of my business. If a school doesn't take the necessary measures to prevent an illegal from working at the respective school, then that's their own fault. If schools and businesses actually screened their applicants, illegals would stop coming here to teach. Simple as that. There is a simple solution yet none of these places choose to implement it. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| TheFonz wrote: |
I wouldn't rat someone out for what the OP proposed. Why would I want to stick my nose in someone elses business. All these "concerned upright citizens" are actually tools who are unhappy with themselves. I imagine these same self-righteous people think smoking pot is immorally wrong.
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(side issue here but....
If you want to smoke pot, go to where it is legal... Amsterdam comes to mind... ) AnYeong
So a personal attack and calling me a tool is OK? Can't argue your case so lets attack the presenter.
This is NOT a moral issue here.... and we were not debating the validity or worth of the law... AND you still have me confused.
IF you see someone stealing from your neighbor...
DON'T report it cause it is none of your business??
It is OK to break a law that you think is silly?
It is NOT ok to break what law?
Where is that line?
| TheFonz wrote: |
Oh and comparing Enron to this is incredibly stupid. The Enron scandal bankrupted thousands upon thousands of people. Thats a little different from pretending to have a college degree or teaching a couple of privates. Thats like me comparing raping someone to jaywalking. |
No, this comparson is actually very accruate. MILLION of Koreans spend BILLIONS (trillions) of won each and every year on ESL for their children.
In spite of what you think you see living comfortably here in some affluent neighboorhoods, this creates some hardship to many families who would go to the extreme of bankruptcy to ensure that their child has a good future. Education and university placement here are placed at that extreme.
People within the country who break the laws ARE committing FRAUD on millions of Koreans.... but that is OK cause a few Koreans cheat the foreigners.
The laws were made for a reason. We are NOT talking about some repressive regime here... but a duly elected and representative government.
Shoplifting is OK unless it is your store... then you get angry.
or better yet....
Fraud is OK unless it is YOUR money that is lost.
It is OK for you to profit from it though.
Tax evasion is OK.
Expecially if it is me. I'm just a little guy, they should go after the big companies.
I wish I had the luxury of youth on this... somehow I fail to see the logic here. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| TheFonz wrote: |
I wouldn't rat someone out for what the OP proposed. Why would I want to stick my nose in someone elses business. All these "concerned upright citizens" are actually tools who are unhappy with themselves. I imagine these same self-righteous people think smoking pot is immorally wrong.
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(side issue here but....
If you want to smoke pot, go to where it is legal... Amsterdam comes to mind... ) AnYeong
So a personal attack and calling me a tool is OK? Can't argue your case so lets attack the presenter.
This is NOT a moral issue here.... and we were not debating the validity or worth of the law... AND you still have me confused.
IF you see someone stealing from your neighbor...
DON'T report it cause it is none of your business??
It is OK to break a law that you think is silly?
It is NOT ok to break what law?
Where is that line?
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You have a point, however I stand firm on my opinion. I know it sounds terrible, but I do consider crimes to be at different levels. If some punk #@! teacher molests a child, I'll be the first one in line to provide a beating. If someone is working illegally and I have a chance to get $1,000 for ratting them out, NO. As I stated before, this problem is easily avoidable if the institutions actually do some work rather than sitting around in a jin jin bong or playing that stupid card game on the computer. If they put in maybe an hours worth of work, they can easily verify whether or not the teacher is legit. If they can't speak English to do so....THAT IS THEIR PROBLEM!!! THEY SHOULDN'T BE RUNNING AN ENGLISH INSTITUTION TO BEGIN WITH. These "illegal" crimes are easily done away with; no one cares to step up to the plate because they WANT these teachers, illegal or not.
Now, regarding everything else you posted. Agreed. I would take action if I saw something that I knew was not in the scope of said persons ability to remedy the situation. Someone stealing from a store and the workers don't see it, I step in. These types of situations are uncontrollable and power is removed from the victim. In the case of illegal teachers, THE POWER RESTS IN THE WANJANIM'S and other heads of English institutions hands. THEY CAN STOP THIS.
In summary, I say, let them handle it.
Good points though Tom.  |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| cubanlord wrote: |
Now, regarding everything else you posted. Agreed. I would take action if I saw something that I knew was not in the scope of said persons ability to remedy the situation. Someone stealing from a store and the workers don't see it, I step in. These types of situations are uncontrollable and power is removed from the victim. In the case of illegal teachers, THE POWER RESTS IN THE WANJANIM'S and other heads of English institutions hands. THEY CAN STOP THIS.
In summary, I say, let them handle it.
Good points though Tom. |
And I say they should prosecute the WANJANIMS as well. The WANJANIMS are not being defrauded... it is the innocent (mostly) parents who are being cheated and defrauded just like the innocents who lost their life savings at ENRON.
WANJANIM tells the parents a pack of lies... takes their money... sounds like the ENRON bosses to me... sell a pack of lies, take their money )ENRON) ....fill some pockets (maybe mine?) and hope to be gone when it all falls apart.
When you are after the criminals... you don't just bust the first one you catch... you don't just selectively prosecute just a few token bad guys...
Go for them all.... |
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