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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:08 am Post subject: ... |
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Gopher:
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mithridates wrote:
I would also like to see your reasoning on how agreement with American standards on treating prisoners and rule of law makes me against the US.
Because I suspect it is disengenous. Like so many others, you have found a point to score against the U.S. and you used it. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Back to the issue at hand: I wish I could remember the source I am thinking of. It was either a former KGB general or a former high-ranking CIA counterintel specialist whose lecture or memoir treated the kidnapping and long torture of William Buckley in the Middle East, and how the U.S. fell all over itself trying, ultimately unsuccessfuly, to negotiate his release.
Apparently Arab terrorists somewhere in that part of the world also kidnapped a KGB resident, tortured him, and began making demands against the Soviet govt sometime in the '70s or '80s.
The Soviets responded immediately -- and in kind. KGB officers found the terrorists' families and extended families (they knew who they were: they had been supplying many of them), kidnapped, and then executed a few dozen of them rather dramatically, thus explaining in the most direct way possible that Moscow simply was not to be provoked again. And, as I recall, after KGB got its man back -- alive -- the problem never reappeared.
That is just how you do business in the Middle East. So, again, I do not much care what the govt did to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. |
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a stance against behaviour like this why the U.S. was so universally respected during the Cold War? I mean, kidnapping innocent people and executing them for an action that they had nothing to do with beyond a familial connection smacks of the very worst sorts of behaviour by totalitarian regimes. And you now seem to be touting this behaviour as worth emulating. Curious... |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
Back to the issue at hand: I wish I could remember the source I am thinking of. It was either a former KGB general or a former high-ranking CIA counterintel specialist whose lecture or memoir treated the kidnapping and long torture of William Buckley in the Middle East, and how the U.S. fell all over itself trying, ultimately unsuccessfuly, to negotiate his release.
Apparently Arab terrorists somewhere in that part of the world also kidnapped a KGB resident, tortured him, and began making demands against the Soviet govt sometime in the '70s or '80s.
The Soviets responded immediately -- and in kind. KGB officers found the terrorists' families and extended families (they knew who they were: they had been supplying many of them), kidnapped, and then executed a few dozen of them rather dramatically, thus explaining in the most direct way possible that Moscow simply was not to be provoked again. And, as I recall, after KGB got its man back -- alive -- the problem never reappeared.
That is just how you do business in the Middle East. So, again, I do not much care what the govt did to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. |
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a stance against behaviour like this why the U.S. was so universally respected during the Cold War? I mean, kidnapping innocent people and executing them for an action that they had nothing to do with beyond a familial connection smacks of the very worst sorts of behaviour by totalitarian regimes. And you now seem to be touting this behaviour as worth emulating. Curious... |
more countries supported the Soviets than the US during the cold war. The US was not popular then too. Since the end of the cold war it is even more true so the many in the world don't like the fact that there is a hyperpower and so they are looking for an opportunity to get the US.
As for what the US ought to do. The US ought to do what it takes to win. Doing bad stuff is not something to be proud of , on the other hand the worst possible situation would be for the US to lose.
It is better to do questionable or bad stuff and win than to do things by the book and lose. If it is a choice between the two.
The enemy the US is fighting against is worse than the US on their best day and the worst day of the US. To allow them to win is the worst possible outcome. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: ... |
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| What the govt did was the right move, even if it was not righteous. |
What proof do you, Goph, have to prove this was "the right move"? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 8:56 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| With freedom of information, this information will probably be released in a few years, which could be very interesting. Who wants to start placing bets on which politician logged in the most calls to 1-900 numbers? |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: |
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Bush Asks For "Dismissal" of NSA Wiretapping Suits
By Kevin Krolicki
Sat May 27, 11:46 PM ET
DETROIT (Reuters) - The U.S. government has asked a pair of federal judges to dismiss legal challenges to the Bush administration's controversial domestic eavesdropping program, arguing any court action in the cases would jeopardize secrets in the ongoing war on terrorism.
Rights activists, who argue the National Security Agency's wiretapping violates the rights of U.S. citizens, said the Bush administration's position threatened constitutional checks on the power of the presidency.
"The Bush administration is trying to crush a very strong case against domestic spying without any evidence or argument," said Shayana Kadidal, an attorney with the New York-based Center for Constitutional Rights, which brought one of the parallel lawsuits against the NSA program in January.
"I think it's a clear choice: can the president tell the courts which cases they can rule on? If so, the courts will never be able to hold the president accountable for breaking the law," he said.
Filed just before a midnight Saturday deadline and only partly made public, the arguments by the Justice Department marked the latest skirmish in a battle over an NSA program to listen in on international communications involving Americans.
President George W. Bush said in December he had authorized the eavesdropping without a court order shortly after the September 11 attacks in order to track suspected communication from al-Qaeda operatives. U.S. officials have since declined to provide details on how widely the NSA wiretaps have been used or what communications have been intercepted.
In asking federal judges in Detroit and New York to throw out challenges to the eavesdropping, the Bush administration invoked a doctrine known as the "state secrets privilege" it has used to head off other court action on its spy programs.
The claim was accompanied by an affidavit by Director of National Intelligence John Negroponte, who said disclosure of any information about the NSA's "Terrorist Surveillance Program" would "cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security of the United States."
Negroponte used the same language earlier this month in an effort to quash a lawsuit over government eavesdropping filed in federal court in San Francisco by the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a privacy rights group.
'CHILLING EFFECT'
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/security_eavesdropping_dc ( ... etc ) |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: ... |
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Keeping our bearings: We're talking about the disappearance of "KSM"
Gopher stated that "it was the right move"
Asked to prove it was the right move, Goph stated:
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| What proof would there ever be to show whether someone or something's decision was right? |
Fair enough. Could you then, elucidate as to what you meant by stating that making this man "disappear" (meaning there is no record of this individual for tracking purposes, judicial purposes, or otherwise) was "the right move"?
NOTE: If that's not what you meant, then please correct me. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 6:17 am Post subject: ... |
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Nowhere Man: I have no issue answering any question you might have for me. We all need to clarify what we try to say or write here, from time to time.
Please ask a concise question, however. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:10 am Post subject: ... |
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| The United States does not exist in a vacuum and cannot ignore the unpleasant nature of the world in which it exists. Some people only understand violence...That is [apparently] just how you do business in the Middle East. |
This is about making someone in custody "disappear". You're saying it's "the right move" for people in US custody to "disappear" because "violence" is how "'they' do business in the 'Middle East'"? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: ... |
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I acknowledge that you've already said it wasn't righteous, but you do say it was the "right" decision.
How so?
Was it the only alternative?
Sorry for asking two questions. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:54 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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