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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| How about Arar? |
And what is Arar? |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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ah, thanks.. I figured I should do a google search but that does the trick. Yeah, not sure about the connection either.
NM, connect the dots please. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
[]
(1) The longer this thing goes on, the more I become a pre Roosevelt isolationist. Other countries' problems are other countries' problems. Bush effed up bigtime with this whole adventure, and why America needs to pay for his blunders even one minute longer is a bigger mystery to me than the tripartate yet unitary nature of God, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Bulsajo wrote:
| Quote: |
| We should both shut up and listen to what others have to say on the subject. |
Yeah, I'm willing to do that, but I'm still waiting to hear that you are willing to bear the brunt of thousands of your troops killed over this and your economy smashed for the next few decades. Because that is what you wish for your neighbors to the south as you encourage this madness to continue.
(2)Once again, as you recommend this thing to continue, are you willing to make the same sacrifices for it? Naw, I didn't think so. |
(numbers are mine)
1. It's quite simple really. YOUR country broke it, your country fixes it. It's about taking responsibility. If you broke an expensive vase in someone's store, would you just quietly sweep the pieces under the rug and tiptoe away. Or would you walk up to the counter and offer to pay? Judging by your posts you'd go for the former option.
2. We didn't invade Iraq, why should we make any sacrifices for it (although we are)? To go back to my analogy we are suggesting that you pay for the vase that you broke. To ask us all to chip in, when we were not the ones at fault is disengenious and dishonest. You broke Iraq now it's yours. And unlike the vase analogy other countries ARE willing to pay for the re-construction of Iraq, once they see America is committed to staying for a while.
Anyway it's a mystery to me why you think Canadians should have no say. You are aware that the vast majority of Canadians are AGAINST the war in Iraq and fully support your desire for a U.S troop pullout? Rather ironic that you would deny your most ardent backers a say in the matter, given that they arehelping to shoulder the cost of one war (in Afghanistan) and also assisting in a second (in Iraq). |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| It's quite simple really. YOUR country broke it, your country fixes it. It's about taking responsibility. If you broke an expensive vase in someone's store, would you just quietly sweep the pieces under the rug and tiptoe away. Or would you walk up to the counter and offer to pay? |
This is very interesting to me, because it does seem to indicate that you understand that some level of malfeasance, or at least negligence, is in evidence with regard to Iraq and the Bush regime, and very few conservatives I have talked to will even walk a few steps in that direction. So Iraq is an expensive vase and Bush broke it, eh? You break it, you buy it, huh?
And yet you have claimed pride in the fact YOUR country helped us, at least inasmuch as mopping up Afghanistan to free Rummy and his crowd to create atrocities elsewhere ... and that gives you the right to a voice. Sure.
| Quote: |
| We didn't invade Iraq, why should we make any sacrifices for it (although we are)? |
Let's be a little clearer - BUSH invaded Iraq. He told people lies in order to make it happen and despite that there was a sizable percentage like me who thought it might not be the best thing for America. At the time, this man had not even been elected by a majority of Americans - if Canadians who support the continuation of this need not bear any sacrifices, then why should the average American?
| Quote: |
| You broke Iraq now it's yours. |
In your bumbling way, you have tripped over what was always the Bush-neocon agenda - not, as they tell us daily, to create democracy, but rather to OWN something (even if it means breaking it first) but most importantly to POSSESS a very oil-rich part of the Middle East and thus be able to influence the cost of it and where it gois for the next few decades.
And they are idiots and they effed it all up, of course.
| Quote: |
| Anyway it's a mystery to me why you think Canadians should have no say. You are aware that the vast majority of Canadians are AGAINST the war in Iraq and fully support your desire for a U.S troop pullout? |
Never said that Canadians should have no say, only that they cannot morally impel a continuation of the war while their own country contributes such a minimal amount of the sacrifices to be made.
Sure, your population is less, but if the manpower and financial resources involved were even proportional, I'd be willing to listen and respect what you say when you call for the whole mess to continue. Without that, you are reaching over the fence into my backyard and not only grabbing a chicken or two but also asking my oldest son to mow your lawn for free.
Cry hypocrisy at me if you want, but I have no problem with those Canadians who come down against the war - and why? Just because they agree with me? No, because they are not asking me and my people to make onerous sacrifices for something THEY think is good and which costs them nothing.
THAT is Bulsajo refuses to address or acknowledge. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| It's quite simple really. YOUR country broke it, your country fixes it. It's about taking responsibility. If you broke an expensive vase in someone's store, would you just quietly sweep the pieces under the rug and tiptoe away. Or would you walk up to the counter and offer to pay? |
(1) This is very interesting to me, because it does seem to indicate that you understand that some level of malfeasance, or at least negligence, is in evidence with regard to Iraq and the Bush regime, and very few conservatives I have talked to will even walk a few steps in that direction. So Iraq is an expensive vase and Bush broke it, eh? You break it, you buy it, huh?
(2) And yet you have claimed pride in the fact YOUR country helped us, at least inasmuch as mopping up Afghanistan to free Rummy and his crowd to create atrocities elsewhere ... and that gives you the right to a voice. Sure.
| Quote: |
| We didn't invade Iraq, why should we make any sacrifices for it (although we are)? |
(3) Let's be a little clearer - BUSH invaded Iraq. He told people lies in order to make it happen and despite that there was a sizable percentage like me who thought it might not be the best thing for America. At the time, this man had not even been elected by a majority of Americans - if Canadians who support the continuation of this need not bear any sacrifices, then why should the average American?
| Quote: |
| You broke Iraq now it's yours. |
(4) In your bumbling way, you have tripped over what was always the Bush-neocon agenda - not, as they tell us daily, to create democracy, but rather to OWN something (even if it means breaking it first) but most importantly to POSSESS a very oil-rich part of the Middle East and thus be able to influence the cost of it and where it gois for the next few decades.
And they are idiots and they effed it all up, of course.
| Quote: |
| Anyway it's a mystery to me why you think Canadians should have no say. You are aware that the vast majority of Canadians are AGAINST the war in Iraq and fully support your desire for a U.S troop pullout? |
(5) Never said that Canadians should have no say, only that they cannot morally impel a continuation of the war while their own country contributes such a minimal amount of the sacrifices to be made.
(6) Sure, your population is less, but if the manpower and financial resources involved were even proportional, I'd be willing to listen and respect what you say when you call for the whole mess to continue. Without that, you are reaching over the fence into my backyard and not only grabbing a chicken or two but also asking my oldest son to mow your lawn for free.
(7) Cry hypocrisy at me if you want, but I have no problem with those Canadians who come down against the war - and why? Just because they agree with me? No, because they are not asking me and my people to make onerous sacrifices for something THEY think is good and which costs them nothing.
THAT is Bulsajo refuses to address or acknowledge. |
(numbers are mine)
1. Sure there was negligence. They didn't go in with enough troops to begin with. Rumsfield should be fired and someone with actual combat experience who knows what things are like on the ground should be put in his place. I have never supported the execution of the plan, only its stated aims. "You break it, you buy it"? Pretty much, yes.
2. Pride? Only pointing out that since Canadians are assisting you (to say nothing of the British and Aussies) that they have a right to voice their opinion (as you agree in number 7) Unfortunately I don't shape Canadian military policy or political policy, but as a Canadian I think I have the right to have a say on Canadian military and public policy and that is we should have more troops in Iraq.
3. The notion that Mr. Bush DELIBERATELY told lies has been thought extremely unlikely by The Economist, TIME, and Newsweek. The Economist states that such claims "seem to be a farango of nonsense" There is absolutely NO proof that Bush knew that his evidence was untrue.
And yet we have evidence from a senior Iraqi officer that there were indeed WMD and that they were transported out of the country, something the liberals tend to ignore.
4. If Bush is making plans to withdraw and scale down the army, how does that equate to owning it?
5. Here is your statement on page 2 about Canadians. "I guess my point is...where do you guys get off having ANY opinion at ALL about this..."
And here you claim "Never said that Canadians should have no say."
6. Since our army is about 1/10 the size of yours, and we have other military commitments, (2157 in Afghanistan) and (1653) in Bosnia among others, we are very stretched thin on the ground.
7. Actually a lot (if not most) of them are against the war, not because they think it is bad, but because they want to see it fail as justification for their world view that the U.S. is bad, and Bush is the biggest baddie of them all. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Actually a lot (if not most) of them[Canadians, I assume TUM means] are against the war |
Most Americans seem to agree with most Canadians about this - check this batch of polling data from that wild and dangerous, ultra-leftwing soucre The Wall Street Journal.
Things are looking good for any Democratic candidate who wants to stand up say that Bush was wrong to go into Iraq, his policies were and are very bad and his execution of them even worse. Finding a Dem willing to stand up like that is the hard part, though if the numbers continue in this direction a lot are going to find ways to open their mouths and say what is true. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 8:56 am Post subject: |
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except the democrats don't have any positive messages; another reason they get their ass kicked every election.
This november should be a cakewalk for the Demos, but they're so incompetant that no one knows what will happen. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| This november should be a cakewalk for the Demos, but they're so incompetant that no one knows what will happen. |
Yeah, this year might be different ... |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: |
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bucheon bum wrote:
This november should be a cakewalk for the Demos, but they're so incompetant that no one knows what will happen.
Yeah, this year might be different ...
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Pardon me if I'm repeating a trite observation, but...
If the GOP goes with a moderate Republican totally unconnected to the Bush regime and the Democrats go with Hillary, then I think that could very well mean a GOP victory. I don't wanna sound like someone who stereotypes all Americans as misogynistic yahoos, because I think you'd see the same tendencies come to the fore in any country that experienced a 9-11. But I could really see a lot of voters being frightened off by liberal female leadership at this point in history. Even though Hillary probably knows a helluva lot more about foreign policy and the military than does someone like Guiliani.
The ideal pairing for the Democrats would be Al Gore vs. Jeb Bush. Gore would appeal to Clinton-era nostalgists, without the aforementioned drawbacks of Hillary. But that match is not likely to happen now, because the whole appeal of JB was his famous last name, which now must have next to no appeal in American politics. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:33 am Post subject: |
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2 years is a long time. Let's first see how the democrats do this november.  |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| 2 years is a long time. Let's first see how the democrats do this november. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:40 am Post subject: ... |
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| I'll leave it to Nowhere man to explain how he fits into this thread (becasue I don't really know). |
Bulsajo,
You say you're ready for Canada to get in on "reconstruction".
I assume you mean re-building the country of Iraq, BUT reconstruction also has the greater implication of re-building "global security".
As such, as part of "reconstruction", Canada might play many roles.
For instance, they could help maintain security at Guantanamo Bay or participate in "extraordinary rendition". I'm not saying we're asking Canadians to help out at Gitmo, but would you, Bulsajo, approve?
In terms of "extraordinary rendition", you already have. See Arar.
Your thoughts? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| In your bumbling way, you have tripped over what was always the Bush-neocon agenda - not, as they tell us daily, to create democracy, but rather to OWN something (even if it means breaking it first) but most importantly to POSSESS a very oil-rich part of the Middle East and thus be able to influence the cost of it and where it gois for the next few decades. |
the US went into Iraq to steal the oil?
No the US went in because mideast the way it was was a threat to the US. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I'll leave it to Nowhere man to explain how he fits into this thread (becasue I don't really know). |
Bulsajo,
You say you're ready for Canada to get in on "reconstruction".
I assume you mean re-building the country of Iraq, BUT reconstruction also has the greater implication of re-building "global security".
As such, as part of "reconstruction", Canada might play many roles.
For instance, they could help maintain security at Guantanamo Bay or participate in "extraordinary rendition". I'm not saying we're asking Canadians to help out at Gitmo, but would you, Bulsajo, approve?
In terms of "extraordinary rendition", you already have. See Arar.
Your thoughts? |
My thoughts?
Extrapolation on what may be can only take you so far.
Why not ask me if I believe that seeking a somewhat stabilized Iraq will lead to a global totalitarian state?
And what happened to Arar was wrong, but if you're going to try and convince me that the incident has become a template of s.o.p. between Canada and US law enforcement I'm going to have to say bull spit to that. |
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