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red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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 Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks, Hermes. |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, Hermes. 
| hermes.trismegistus wrote: |
| Constantine presided over the Council (of Nicea, in 325 AD) and he ultimately decided the new God for them. He determined that the names of his two first century descendents (Jesu Cunobeline and Judas Khrestus) would be joined as one, Jesu Khrestus, and that would be the official name of the new Roman God. |
Sorry, I'm confused here. Were Jesu Cunobeline and Judas Khrestus his two first century forefathers?
| hermes.trismegistus wrote: |
| The real treasure trove lies beneath the Vatican. It contains well over 560,000 un-translated ancient volumes containing some extraordinary ancient documents associated with Christianity's earliest days. |
And let's not forget that 500,000 to 750,000 irreplaceable, priceless scrolls and books were destroyed when the Library of Alexandria was burned by Christians at the command of Bishops Theophilus and Cyril.
If it's not too much of a bother, could I pick your brains some more?
My understanding is that the only references to Jesus ben Panthera are in the Talmud. True?
Also, it seems to me that there is credible evidence for an historical John the Baptist. True?
| red dog wrote: |
| Years ago I remember reading something by (feminist scholar) Barbara Walker suggesting that he may have been a composite of a few different people and that the teachings attributed to him may have come from other sources. |
I'm beginning to think that, too.
I've mentioned John the Baptist.
A very interesting person is Apollonius of Tyana. His biography was published in 217, 108 years before the Council of Nicaea.
Some of St. Paul's letters have been attributed to him, since some of them seem to date after Paul's beheading but before Apollonius' death.
He even looks like Jesus as he is commonly portrayed. link
another link Fascinating, fascinating man, but unfortunately there is a lot of obvious fiction mixed in with the facts.
Aside from the discredited Testimonium Flavianum, Josephus mentions several Jesuses who are quite similar and may well be the same person. They are all rabbis and leaders of insurgents/guerrilla fighters/robbers, and one is finally caught, tortured, and executed.
RTeacher:
By your logic *ahem*
Jesus is the son of Krishna.
So why didn't Jesus inherit his father's blue skin?
Is it a recessive gene? |
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red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks Troll Bait, this is all very interesting and it's good to read your comments and Hermes' for a bit of balance on these "Jesus" threads. I've been meaning to look into these matters for a while now, and I think I will soon. |
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hermes.trismegistus
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going out for the afternoon, but I'll try to get back to the thread before too long.
I've got plenty of references on John, including some rather morbid facts from the early Church.
Namaste. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Saw the movie this evening and I thought it was very representative of the book (i.e. overrated drivel). |
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hermes.trismegistus
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| Sorry, I'm confused here. Were Jesu Cunobeline and Judas Khrestus his two first century forefathers? |
Yup. Sorry for the typo.
| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| My understanding is that the only references to Jesus ben Panthera are in the Talmud. True? |
The only direct references known, yes. The Talmud records that Jesus was the result of an illegitimate union between his mother and a Roman soldier named Tiberius Julius Abdes Panthera. The Talmud writers mentioned Jesus' name twenty times and quite specifically documented that he was born an illegitimate son of a Roman soldier called Panthera, nicknamed the 'Panther' (a reference to early mystery schools which glorified panthers). Panthera's existence was confirmed by the discovery of a mysterious tombstone at Bingerbr�ck, Germany. The engraving etched in the headstone reads:
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| Tiberius Julius Abdes Panthera, an archer, native of Sidon, Phoenicia, who was transferred to service in Rhineland.[Jesus the Magician, Professor Morton Smith, 1978] |
The inscription added fuel to the theory that Jesus was the illegitimate son of Mary and the soldier Panthera. Classical scholar Professor Morton Smith of Columbia University, USA, described the tombstone as possibly "our only genuine relic of the holy family." (Ibid) In many Jewish references, Jesus was often referred to as 'ben Panthera', 'ben' meaning 'son of'. However cautious one ought to be in accepting anything about Jesus from Jewish sources, in the matter of Jesus 'ben Panthera', the writers seem more consistent than the men we now call the Church fathers.
Scholars have discussed for centuries as to why Jesus was so regularly called ben Panthera. Origen recorded the following verses about Mary from the records of Celsus (c. 178):
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| Mary was turned out by her husband, a carpenter by profession, after she had been convicted of unfaithfulness. Cut off by her spouse, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard; that Jesus, on account of his poverty was hired out to go to Egypt; that while there he acquired certain [magical] powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. (Contra Celsus, 1:28 ) |
Later, in 1:32, Origen supported the Jewish records and confirmed that the paramour of the mother of Jesus was a Roman soldier called Panthera. Sometime during the 17th century these references were erased from the Vatican manuscripts and other codices under Church control, but they still exist elsewhere.
St. Epiphanius, the Bishop of Salamis (315-403CE) also confirmed the ben Panthera story. The 'champion of Christian orthodoxy' and saint in Roman Catholicism frankly stated:
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| Jesus was the son of a certain Julius whose surname was Panthera. (Heresies, Epiphanius, lxxvii, 7). |
Etc.
| Troll Bait wrote: |
| Also, it seems to me that there is credible evidence for an historical John the Baptist. True? |
To a degree, yes.
John the Baptist is now generally recognised, like Paul, as an Essene. Dr. Franz Hartmann, in The Life of Jehoshua, that John the Baptist 'was of a noble family and had many influential friends.' The discovery of the lost Book of the Nativity of John (the Baptist), by Hugh J. Schonfield in 1929, revealed that originally:
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| John the Baptist [as a baby] was considered by the early church as the infant messiah. Its loss [of this document] at a very early date is not to be wondered at, as the church had the best possible means for suppressing it. The fact that John the Baptist was regarded as the messiah by a numerous following may be a new one to many people. (The Lost Book of the Nativity of John, Hugh J. Schonfield, 1929. preface, p. x.) |
Origen, Epiphanius and Julian the Emperor all clearly record that John the Baptist was a 'Krist' figure, but made no reference to Jesus himself attaining that status. Bishop Theodoret, who wrote in the 5th century, stated that Jesus was not one of the 'Krist' personalities, although many others of his time were. (Facts and Speculation on the Origin and History of the Christian Church, Jacob Bryant, London, 1793).
During the sordid history of relic-abuse, I've got references to the sale/purchase/exhibition of: 'a spot of the blood of the Savior', one arm of the apostle James, part of the skeleton of John the Baptist, a bottle of the Mother of God's breast milk, one of the fingers of the Holy Ghost, Mary's girdle, packets of Mary's powdered breast milk, a vial of water used to baptize Jesus, a tear that Jesus shed over Lazarus, some manna that fell from heaven in the year 371 during a famine, a baby tooth shed by infant Jesus, Jesus' manger-cradle, multiple churches claimed to have Jesus' foreskin, seven churches claimed to have his authentic umbilical cord, Mary's wedding rings, six churches had John the Baptists severed head, the skulls of the Three Wise Men who followed the Star of Bethlehem, the cloak of Mary, the swaddling-clothes of the infant Jesus, the loincloth worn by Jesus on the cross, and the cloth on which they lay the head of John the Baptist after his decaptitation.
Etc.
Namaste. |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:38 am Post subject: |
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Thanks again, Hermes.
This really blew me away.
| hermes.trismegistus wrote: |
There were no less than 53 Gods debated at the Council of Nicea. "As yet, the new God had not been selected by the council, and so they balloted, in order to determine the matter. For one year and five months the balloting lasted." (Gods Book of Eskra, xlviii 26-53).
After those 17 months, Constantine returned to discover that the presbyters had not agreed on a new deity but had balloted down to a short list of five prospects: Caesar, Krishna, Mithra, Horus, and Zeus. Constantine presided over the Council and he ultimately decided the new God for them. He determined that the names of his two first century descendents (Jesu Cunobeline and Judas Khrestus) would be joined as one, Jesu Khrestus, and that would be the official name of the new Roman God. A vote was subsequently taken and it was with a majority show of hands that both men became one God ... 161 votes to 157. Following longstanding custom, Constantine used the official gathering and the Roman Apotheoses Decree to legally deify the new God for the rabble and did so by democratic consent and with the blessing of presbyters in attendance. A new Roman God was proclaimed and 'officially' ratified by Emperor Constantine. (Encyclopedia Britannica, Edinburgh Ed. 1797) |
Even I was flabbergasted.
Is this information published in any books that are currently available (e.g. through Amazon.com), or do I have to break into the Vatican's underground labyrinths? |
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hermes.trismegistus
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| Is this information published in any books that are currently available (e.g. through Amazon.com), or do I have to break into the Vatican's underground labyrinths? |
Sure - you can find the complete God's Book of Eskra here.
For the other, just track down a copy of the 1797 Edinburgh ed. of Encyclopedia Britannica. 
Namaste. |
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