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deadman
Joined: 27 May 2006
Location: Suwon
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 Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher,
From an outsiders point of view, it seems this current administration doesn't make much of a distinction between the security of the nation and the security of the party. It seems that they are willing to use the national security excuse to cover up stuff that might be politically disavantageous to them, not necessarily dangerous to the country. Also, the whole eavesdropping on civilians thing without authorisation could have taken place for political, not national gain, otherwise why would they need to circumvent the special courts?
What do you think? |
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deadman
Joined: 27 May 2006
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| See, Bulsajo? That is the problem with that kind of sarcasm and the "inquiring-minds-want-to-know" personality prototype... |
I fully appreciate it is sarcastic - but as in all other forms of humour there is an element of truth. I don't think Bulsajo specifically thinks that, but it's definitely a point of view that is out there, and my comments on it are valid. (if you don't think so, help me out)
Can you tell me more about the enquiring-minds-want-to-know personality prototype? |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| No opinion at the present time except to say that the quality of debate in this thread has gotten much better. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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deadman
Joined: 27 May 2006
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| So it is much more complex than you seem to be aware. |
You're right, I'm not too sure about some of the complexities of domstic US politics. (Only what appears on Rense.com!) |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| No opinion at the present time except to say that the quality of debate in this thread has gotten much better. |
Still room for improvement - too many sarcastic "congratulations, you now understand the basics of government," "you and all the others on the board who seem to think that..." type of sarcasm and generalizing that doesn't ever help a debate. I suspect that some people simply can't help putting barbs into what they say though.
As for Wikipedia, (BIG SURPRISE) IGTG is...way off base.
(sorry, that was a barb too) |
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deadman
Joined: 27 May 2006
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| deadman wrote: |
| (Only what appears on Rense.com!) |
If you are serious when you say this, I can suggest better sources of information for you.
I cannot tell if you are serious, though, because that is a name that is thrown around quite a lot here.
Can you clarify this point? |
Absolutely. I read rense a lot. I particularly like the wide variety of information available. I will expose myself to any point of view without prejudice, and judge it according to its merit, and by how well it fits in to my broader understanding of the world.
I also read David Icke, who is even more strongly associated with conspiracy theories that are unacceptable to mainstream thinking. (Please don't tell me he's an anti-semite unless you have read at least as much as I have,if you don't mind). I don't believe everything I read, I treat it with the same healthy skepticism I treat official government information. I also strongly believe that both individuals are working to make the world a place where an individual can live his life as he wishes in peace, and doing so by facilitating the free flow of knowledge.
What other sources do you recommend? |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| No opinion at the present time except to say that the quality of debate in this thread has gotten much better. |
Premature and overly optimistic. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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deadman
Joined: 27 May 2006
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| deadman wrote: |
| What other sources do you recommend? |
On U.S. foreign policy: go to State's Freedom of Information Act Reading Room (declassified documents and telephone transcripts, etc.); go to George Washington University's National Security Archive (oppositionist); |
Those sound interesting, I'll have a look.
| Gopher wrote: |
| and also check out the Council on Foreign Relations's journal, Foreign Affairs (conservative). |
I might check this out, if only to find out what the enemy is putting out for public consumption. My problem with the CFR is that it is one of a number of organisations whose existence, membership and agendas exist in a bit of a blind spot in mainstream media. Their membership includes politicians and the media elite among others. These organisations aren't answerable to politicians or governments, but some would argue the converse is true. Other related organisations would be: Royal Institue of International Affairs (basically UK equivalent of CFR), Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg Group, Club of Rome and the United Nations (created by the CFR). Their common agenda is believed by some (including me) to be working towards a one world superstate, for whatever reason. People sometimes ask how a conspiracy could be organised on such a large scale. Well, it would be possible through groups such as these, especially if they in turn were subordinate to another group.
| Gopher wrote: |
| Also, get away from the journalists and conspiracy theorists and get into academic analysis. It is mostly dispassionate and professional, |
The academic community is very strongly self policing. Anyone who strays outside the official line is attacked and their reputation destroyed. Precisely because it is professional is it's main weakness - say the wrong thing and you've lost your livelihood, not just your reputation.
| Gopher wrote: |
| and you can still find analyses slanted to the left -- if that is what suits you. |
Left, right, who cares? It's an artificial duality designed to make us think we have a choice. They differ on essentially superficial issues, leaving the ones we shoud be worried about unchallenged.
| Gopher wrote: |
| If you are going to take your cue from journalism, however, and with respect to the United States, then go to NPR.org, PBS.org, CNN.com, and read the New York Times or the Washington Post. |
No thanks! I'll quote John Swinton, a jouralist at the New York Times who make the following statement at a retirement speech:
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| There is no such thing as a free press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who would dare write his honest opinions. The business of the journalist is to destroy truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and to sell himself, his country and his race, for his daily bread. We are tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are jumping jacks; they pull the strings, we dance; our talents, our possibilities and our lives are the property of these men. We are intellectual prostitutes. |
The same goes for any individual, academic, politician etc who gets his daily bread from the establishment. Thats why these conspiracy sites have anti establishment views. It's goddamn healthy.
| Gopher wrote: |
| Rense strikes me as an unreliable source of data and analysis |
It is, but I treat all information that way, unless I have a good reason not to.
In summary, I like the filter which decides what I should and shoud not believe to be at the door of my own mind, not in the hands of someone else. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Another Agent Mulder. |
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deadman
Joined: 27 May 2006
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I've got a sexy sidekick too. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| My problem with the CFR is that it is one of a number of organisations whose existence, membership and agendas exist in a bit of a blind spot in mainstream media. Their membership includes politicians and the media elite among others. These organisations aren't answerable to politicians or governments, but some would argue the converse is true. Other related organisations would be: Royal Institue of International Affairs (basically UK equivalent of CFR), Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg Group, Club of Rome and the United Nations (created by the CFR). |
Deadman:
Of course the Trialteral Commission isn't answerable to the government. It's a private think tank. Saying that they don't answer to the government is like saying that Dave's ESL Cafe doesn't answer to the Korean Ministry Of Education.
And yes: the governments are, in a sense, answerable to the Trilateral Commission, because most of the people on the TC are prominent people in government. So it's not some shadowy cabal giving orders to our leaders; it IS our leaders, getting together to have conversations with one another. Just like they do at country clubs, ski chalets, and their children's weddings. It is no more sinister than that.
Even if the TC and similar groups didn't exist, do you think the world leaders would stop holding private conversations with one another? Not likely. |
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