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| what would u give? |
| C |
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70% |
[ 12 ] |
| D |
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23% |
[ 4 ] |
| F |
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5% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 17 |
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| Author |
Message |
jacl
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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 Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| Lemonade wrote: |
| Percy Nickets wrote: |
| Lemonade wrote: |
| I know of professors who give mercenary Ds just so the student doesn't have to take the class again and more importantly, so we don't have to put another professor through the same problem. |
Lord have mercy! The profs kill the students just so they won't have to retake the course?  |
They are happy with a D because it means they won't have to retake the class. A lot of these students couldn't care less what grade they get as long as they pass the class. |
I think you're missing the point there "professor". |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| Lemonade wrote: |
| Give her what she earned. If she earned a D, then give her a D. I don't see the point of giving an F if she earned a D. That doesn't make any sense. She can always take the class over again for a better grade. |
I'd say she is a D student.
But, from some sources, I've heard a 'F' is better than a 'D', as they can always retake the course with a 'F'. Supposedly a 'D' just seriously hurts their G.P.A. and nothing they can do about it once its there. (They aren't erased by retaking the class as they are in the West).
I'm leaning towards 'C' because of that.
| desultude wrote: |
What did she earn?
The answer, to me, is not how well she did compared to other students who may have arrived to the course with a higher level, but, based on her efforts and advancement, what did she earn? |
Her efforts and advancement (improvement) is fairly poor. Just basic stuff I've told her time and time again to work on and improve, just comes back pretty much exactly the same with no improvement. Its frustrating at best.
Then again, her English is so weak, I'm sure 90% of what I'm talking about goes in one ear and out the other.
| desultude wrote: |
| There is not an easy answer to this, but, if a student attends, does the work, and improves, I would give a C. |
She does attend, and she does do the work. But its quite poor work. Improvement none.
| inkoreaforgood wrote: |
| C for effort as well. English will always remain beyond the reaches of some students. Considering how often the average student will give up in the face of mild difficulty, I'd say that a strong effort like hers does not deserve to be shat upon. She worked hard but could not manage to lift that load. |
Her effort is more along the lines of attending and doing the homework.
But seriously, the homework has very little effort put into it. Its embarrassingly bad. I really don't think she learned a single thing in my class the entire semester. Strangely she has amazing attendance though. Usually these types of students have dodgy attendance and therefore fail by default.
This is probably the first time I've ever had a student attend all the classes, appear as if she's listening (admittely with extremely poor English abilities), but just completely fail in her finished homework assignments, and failed the midterm test quite badly as well.
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An example.. we're working with resumes.. three times she's handed in her resume. She has a book and many online examples I've given her.
Everytime she has the same mistakes. Everytime I point out all the mistakes, and tell her to work on and improve this. I write it and go over it all in class with everyone. Plus she gets her resume back with all of my many notes and so forth to re-write correctly.
These are all the things wrong with her final submitted resume (all the problems she had with the other two versons of it). In addition, she failed these questions on the test - questions such as 'what MUST be included in the experience section - names of employers, dates worked, city location, job title, etc.
Okay, all the things wrong:
1) Her objective is not actually an objective. She just tells me what the company is that she's applying for.
2) Education - missing the city name of her school. Maybe not important in Korea, but I've written it must be included on all her other samples.
3) Education - dates are a bit messed up. For one she has them listed in two places, the left margin and again in the description part.
4) Education section again - just says 'graduate'.. graduate of what? What did you graduate with? This is something else I've discussed at least 4-5 to her specifically and placed on the midterm in which she missed that answer as well.
5) Experience - again dates are all messed up. "Feb 2005".. what is that? I've told her throughout the semester you must have a beginning date and an ending date.
6) Experience again - CITY names. WHERE did you work? What city?
7) Experience yet again - It says 'Illustration, part of teaching materials for high school students, Dasung'. What is Dasung? Is it a High School? A hogwan? What is that? Where is it? Be specific. Full names of employers - I've stressed this the entire semester.
8 ) Qualifications.. there is a category on hers for computers.. and it says 'Hangul' among other ones. Why is 'Hangul' there?
9) Some capitalization error mistakes here and there, some spacing errors, kind of weird format. I always stress the presentation aspect - everything consistent, etc.
This is just one example.. obviously doing the work.. she typed it out. she handed it in.. she attends the class. But zero improvement.. yet each version of her resume handed in, it is actually different.. so its not like she's just handing in the same ol' thing each time. But nothing new was learned from any and all of the comments I've stressed previously.
Quite similar with other assignments as well. We've done researching company profiles, cover letters, interview questions, etc.
I've been learning towards a 'C' for great attendance, doing the assignments, and a good attitute (although quite shy and passive particularly with participation).. and most particularly because I don't want her to not be able to graduate on her timeframe or ruin her G.P.A. as a graduating senior.. but when I see this extremely pathetic final resume submitted.. it just really gets to me. I almost feel like she hasn't improved with things I've been stressing all semester.
This particular class is 'employment english' as well.. and not even being able to write a resume properly after a semester of it (with me giving many critiques and examples on how to do it in ways I find acceptable) - and its a relatively easy thing to do anyways. Granted there have been a lot of other things going on in this class - particularly stressing the interview itself complete with appropriately answering questions correctly, how to conduct yourself, how to present yourself, etc. So the 'resume' aspect could have just got lost in there with the stress of everything else.. but c'mon.. its quite important for a class of this nature. Its almost critical.
Most likely, I'll just make her write her resume again and again until she gets it right.. and try my best to get her up to 'C' level (even if its via email). There are also mock interviews coming up with a panel for her and other students in the class. So we'll see how she performs there. This summer weather just melted her mind though. These final version homework assignments and the last exam.. and I just feel like she's seriously dropped the ball on all of the most critical aspects for passing a class of this nature. |
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jacl
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| Lemonade wrote: |
| Give her what she earned. If she earned a D, then give her a D. I don't see the point of giving an F if she earned a D. That doesn't make any sense. She can always take the class over again for a better grade. |
I'd say she is a D student.
But, from some sources, I've heard a 'F' is better than a 'D', as they can always retake the course with a 'F'. Supposedly a 'D' just seriously hurts their G.P.A. and nothing they can do about it once its there. (They aren't erased by retaking the class as they are in the West).
I'm leaning towards 'C' because of that.
| desultude wrote: |
What did she earn?
The answer, to me, is not how well she did compared to other students who may have arrived to the course with a higher level, but, based on her efforts and advancement, what did she earn? |
Her efforts and advancement (improvement) is fairly poor. Just basic stuff I've told her time and time again to work on and improve, just comes back pretty much exactly the same with no improvement. Its frustrating at best.
Then again, her English is so weak, I'm sure 90% of what I'm talking about goes in one ear and out the other.
| desultude wrote: |
| There is not an easy answer to this, but, if a student attends, does the work, and improves, I would give a C. |
She does attend, and she does do the work. But its quite poor work. Improvement none.
| inkoreaforgood wrote: |
| C for effort as well. English will always remain beyond the reaches of some students. Considering how often the average student will give up in the face of mild difficulty, I'd say that a strong effort like hers does not deserve to be shat upon. She worked hard but could not manage to lift that load. |
Her effort is more along the lines of attending and doing the homework.
But seriously, the homework has very little effort put into it. Its embarrassingly bad. I really don't think she learned a single thing in my class the entire semester. Strangely she has amazing attendance though. Usually these types of students have dodgy attendance and therefore fail by default.
This is probably the first time I've ever had a student attend all the classes, appear as if she's listening (admittely with extremely poor English abilities), but just completely fail in her finished homework assignments, and failed the midterm test quite badly as well.
---------
An example.. we're working with resumes.. three times she's handed in her resume. She has a book and many online examples I've given her.
Everytime she has the same mistakes. Everytime I point out all the mistakes, and tell her to work on and improve this. I write it and go over it all in class with everyone. Plus she gets her resume back with all of my many notes and so forth to re-write correctly.
These are all the things wrong with her final submitted resume (all the problems she had with the other two versons of it). In addition, she failed these questions on the test - questions such as 'what MUST be included in the experience section - names of employers, dates worked, city location, job title, etc.
Okay, all the things wrong:
1) Her objective is not actually an objective. She just tells me what the company is that she's applying for.
2) Education - missing the city name of her school. Maybe not important in Korea, but I've written it must be included on all her other samples.
3) Education - dates are a bit messed up. For one she has them listed in two places, the left margin and again in the description part.
4) Education section again - just says 'graduate'.. graduate of what? What did you graduate with? This is something else I've discussed at least 4-5 to her specifically and placed on the midterm in which she missed that answer as well.
5) Experience - again dates are all messed up. "Feb 2005".. what is that? I've told her throughout the semester you must have a beginning date and an ending date.
6) Experience again - CITY names. WHERE did you work? What city?
7) Experience yet again - It says 'Illustration, part of teaching materials for high school students, Dasung'. What is Dasung? Is it a High School? A hogwan? What is that? Where is it? Be specific. Full names of employers - I've stressed this the entire semester.
8 ) Qualifications.. there is a category on hers for computers.. and it says 'Hangul' among other ones. Why is 'Hangul' there?
9) Some capitalization error mistakes here and there, some spacing errors, kind of weird format. I always stress the presentation aspect - everything consistent, etc.
This is just one example.. obviously doing the work.. she typed it out. she handed it in.. she attends the class. But zero improvement.. yet each version of her resume handed in, it is actually different.. so its not like she's just handing in the same ol' thing each time. But nothing new was learned from any and all of the comments I've stressed previously.
Quite similar with other assignments as well. We've done researching company profiles, cover letters, interview questions, etc.
I've been learning towards a 'C' for great attendance, doing the assignments, and a good attitute (although quite shy and passive particularly with participation).. and most particularly because I don't want her to not be able to graduate on her timeframe or ruin her G.P.A. as a graduating senior.. but when I see this extremely pathetic final resume submitted.. it just really gets to me. I almost feel like she hasn't improved with things I've been stressing all semester.
This particular class is 'employment english' as well.. and not even being able to write a resume properly after a semester of it (with me giving many critiques and examples on how to do it in ways I find acceptable) - and its a relatively easy thing to do anyways. Granted there have been a lot of other things going on in this class - particularly stressing the interview itself complete with appropriately answering questions correctly, how to conduct yourself, how to present yourself, etc. So the 'resume' aspect could have just got lost in there with the stress of everything else.. but c'mon.. its quite important for a class of this nature. Its almost critical.
Most likely, I'll just make her write her resume again and again until she gets it right.. and try my best to get her up to 'C' level (even if its via email). There are also mock interviews coming up with a panel for her and other students in the class. So we'll see how she performs there. This summer weather just melted her mind though. These final version homework assignments and the last exam.. and I just feel like she's seriously dropped the ball on all of the most critical aspects for passing a class of this nature. |
Just out of curiosity, how many students are in that class? |
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Giving this student a C is not the end of the *beep* world. I don't imagine that she'll be overjoyed or proud of it and it's not like you're doing society a disservice. |
well despite other disagreements with jacl I agree with him on this one.
Well Einstein survived despite some C's in his life. I know a PhD student in chemistry that got a D in chemistry in high school. I guess that there are two important aspects to this question. What do grades really mean? Furthermore, the light bulb does not come on for everyone at the same time in life! So should those who don't get it now suffer the consequences?For some the classroom is too abstract. I bet we could find some Korea students who know English well but do poorly in a classroom setting.
Tiger Beer, I am sure you are a great teacher but maybe her learning style is not in accordance with your teaching style. In a classroom you can't always meet the needs of every student so I would give her a C. If she was lazy I would say give her an F but education is a two way street and despite the beliefs of some, the student cannot bear 100 percent of the responsibility for not learning the material well when they are making and effort to learn the material. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| If she attended every class and did all the homework, a C for sure. It's nothing to you and it's her life. What are you achieving by making things harder for her? |
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merrilee
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| If she attended every class and did all the homework, a C for sure. It's nothing to you and it's her life. What are you achieving by making things harder for her? |
Exactly. Students who at least feign effort and come to class always get at least a C in my class, and as Satori said, it costs you nothing. More importantly, handing out Cs doesn't doesn't downplay the value of an A that hardworking students get. In my opinion, Ds should be reserved for students who pass the exams but don't bother to bring their book or a pen to class. |
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Lemonade
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| If she attended every class and did all the homework, a C for sure. It's nothing to you and it's her life. What are you achieving by making things harder for her? |
You will find very few professors in the USA who have the viewpoint. I should know as my Master's was in Higher Ed. I worked at universities doing research for professors and I attended six of them as a student myself. In the USA, if you earn a D, you get a D. Rarely, will a professor bump a grade up for any reason. Also, sometimes if you fail to turn in ONE assignment on time, you will fail the class. Professors don't take attendance in the USA. I find that part of my job here in Korea to be absolutely pointless. I am really not impressed with attendance records. Good students sometimes have to miss classes. Some of my best students had no choice due to work reasons, surgery etc. I'm not going to hold that against them. However, a student who refuses to learn, now that I take into account. |
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Lemonade
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| merrilee wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| If she attended every class and did all the homework, a C for sure. It's nothing to you and it's her life. What are you achieving by making things harder for her? |
Exactly. Students who at least feign effort and come to class always get at least a C in my class, and as Satori said, it costs you nothing. More importantly, handing out Cs doesn't doesn't downplay the value of an A that hardworking students get. In my opinion, Ds should be reserved for students who pass the exams but don't bother to bring their book or a pen to class. |
This doesn't make any sense. So a student who does well on the exams but fails to bring in their book or a pen to class should get a D? I don't have the time of day to check on 50 students to see if they brought a pen and their book to class. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? |
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merrilee
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Lemonade wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| If she attended every class and did all the homework, a C for sure. It's nothing to you and it's her life. What are you achieving by making things harder for her? |
You will find very few professors in the USA who have the viewpoint. |
You're not in the USA. |
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Professors don't take attendance in the USA. I find that part of my job here in Korea to be absolutely pointless. |
Lemonade, you should not make such sweeping generalizations about what professors in the U.S. do. Even if you have experience with 20 American Universities that only makes up 2 percent or less of all American universities. There are defiantly some universities that have attendance policies. I would say that a substantial amount of small liberal arts schools take attendance.
Last edited by JZer on Sun May 28, 2006 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lemonade
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| merrilee wrote: |
| Lemonade wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| If she attended every class and did all the homework, a C for sure. It's nothing to you and it's her life. What are you achieving by making things harder for her? |
You will find very few professors in the USA who have the viewpoint. |
You're not in the USA. |
you can take the boy out of the country but you can't take the country out of the boy.  |
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merrilee
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Lemonade wrote: |
| merrilee wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| If she attended every class and did all the homework, a C for sure. It's nothing to you and it's her life. What are you achieving by making things harder for her? |
Exactly. Students who at least feign effort and come to class always get at least a C in my class, and as Satori said, it costs you nothing. More importantly, handing out Cs doesn't doesn't downplay the value of an A that hardworking students get. In my opinion, Ds should be reserved for students who pass the exams but don't bother to bring their book or a pen to class. |
This doesn't make any sense. So a student who does well on the exams but fails to bring in their book or a pen to class should get a D? I don't have the time of day to check on 50 students to see if they brought a pen and their book to class. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? |
Regardless of class size, my point is that by the end of the semester I'm sure you have a pretty good idea about which students actively participate in class and try versus which students show up but put forth no effort whatsoever. Usually the students lacking ambition in class do poorly on the exams, but in the rare instance where a lackluster student actually passes the exams, I'll still pass the student with a D.
And yes, I know what I'm talking about. I frequently make notes during class regarding which students are putting forth a valiant effort and which students are trying to secretly play with their handphones below their desks. When grade time rolls around, this sort of information comes in quite handy.
*edited for grammar
Last edited by merrilee on Sun May 28, 2006 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lemonade
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Professors don't take attendance in the USA. I find that part of my job here in Korea to be absolutely pointless. |
Lemonade, you should not make such sweeping gneralizations about what professors in the U.S. do. Even if you have experience with 20 American Universities that only makes up 2 percent or less of all American universities. There are definitly some universities that have attendance policies. I would say that a substainal amount f small liberal arts schools take attendance. |
Where are you getting this information from? Let's see the link posted here. Have you done orignial research concerning this matter? You forget that my Master's is in Higher Ed. I took enough classes in theory to know what I'm talking about. |
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Lemonade
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| merrilee wrote: |
| Lemonade wrote: |
| merrilee wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| If she attended every class and did all the homework, a C for sure. It's nothing to you and it's her life. What are you achieving by making things harder for her? |
Exactly. Students who at least feign effort and come to class always get at least a C in my class, and as Satori said, it costs you nothing. More importantly, handing out Cs doesn't doesn't downplay the value of an A that hardworking students get. In my opinion, Ds should be reserved for students who pass the exams but don't bother to bring their book or a pen to class. |
This doesn't make any sense. So a student who does well on the exams but fails to bring in their book or a pen to class should get a D? I don't have the time of day to check on 50 students to see if they brought a pen and their book to class. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? |
Regardless of class size, my point is that by the end of the semester I'm sure you have a pretty good idea about which students actively participate in class and try versus which students show up but put forth no effort whatsoever. Usually the students lacking ambition in class do poorly on the exams, but in the rare instance where a lackluster student actually passes the exams, I'll still pass the student with a D.
And yes, I know what I'm talking about. I frequently make notes during class regarding which students are putting forth a valiant effort and which students are trying to secretly playing with their handphones below their desks. When grade time rolls around, this sort of information comes in quite handy. |
That's fine if you don't have that many students. I have over 250 students and I don't have the time to make those kinds of notes. However, the students I catch cheating .... that's a different story. Cheat in my class and I'll show very little mercy. Confess, and I'll be more fair. |
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merrilee
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Lemonade wrote: |
| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Professors don't take attendance in the USA. I find that part of my job here in Korea to be absolutely pointless. |
Lemonade, you should not make such sweeping gneralizations about what professors in the U.S. do. Even if you have experience with 20 American Universities that only makes up 2 percent or less of all American universities. There are definitly some universities that have attendance policies. I would say that a substainal amount f small liberal arts schools take attendance. |
Where are you getting this information from? Let's see the link posted here. Have you done orignial research concerning this matter? You forget that my Master's is in Higher Ed. I took enough classes in theory to know what I'm talking about. |
I don't think anyone here is debating whether or not giving credit for attendance is well aligned with educational theory, but for what it's worth, I'd say around 25% of my professors at the University of Texas took attendance. |
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