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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
And you can bet that if it were Morrocan Muslims or Korean Confucians holding a similar ceremony, San Francisco liberals would not be ridiculing it in the local arts paper. |
you're right. Sadly the article was in the largest circulating paper in Northern California (SF Chronicle), and not just the "local arts paper." |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| That article made it into a major paper? Unbelievable. It was pure crap. It was nothing but the hatred of one puny-minded idiot directed at a group of people who happen to think that waiting till marriage is a good thing. Did the writer investigate to see if the boys in these same families were NOT taught to wait till marriage? My guess is that they are but that boys are not so keen on having balls (the party/dance types I mean-not the testicular kind of which they are quite fond.) I've never heard of any church teaching that girls should wait till marriage but not boys. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| I've never heard of any church teaching that girls should wait till marriage but not boys |
I think it's safe to say that in certain Christian cultures, the sexaul double standard holds sway on a social level. But yeah, I don't think the churches in those places explicitly teach that it's okay for boys and not for girls. And as you say, the article presented no evidence that these particular people are adhering to the double standard. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Endesu wrote: |
Not often do I agree so wholeheartedly with an oppinion piece, but that was just spot on. And explained why the USA is a place I, and many people like me, could never live. Freedom my ass. These right wing conservatives are as scary as fundamental muslims. And they want everybody else to live like them. Arghhh.
Please point out where in the article where it says that the people involved want everyone to be as they are. Are you truly concerned laws will be passed on chastity? Exactly how is your freedom being reduced in any way by these "purtiy balls?"
Opressing women and ruining lives in the name of religion, I wonder if the world will ever get rid of religious fanatics....
And I have never understood how people can be opposed to abortions in this day and age, but we are all entitled to our own oppinions. But if abortions is not right for you, why cant it be right for others?
And if chastity is not right for you, why can't it be right for others?
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Very well. Let us now trace the path of imminent cultural destruction: Virgin girl has zero experience with the joys of her own body, with orgasm, with men, with sex toys or shower heads or good gynecological gizmongery. She then marries a man who will very likely have not the slightest clue (as he has had the same dreadful sexual miseducation as our fair virgin) as to what to do with a woman's body, who will, by most all accounts, be unable to tell an erogenous zone from an elbow, a clitoris from a belly button.
Voil�, the standard recipe for emotional, physical and spiritual catastrophe, for roughly 17 years of vague marital misery capped off by divorce and much therapy and four unhappy children and the profound and aching need located somewhere deep beneath the pelvic bone to try something, anything new and different and sexually liberating. |
This part really cracked me up. There's nothing like a hypothetical, obviously skewed scenario to "prove" your point. Wow. divorce, therapy, unhappy children and all because they didn't sleep around enough before marriage. If only they'd been looser!! When will people learn!?!?  |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
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Very well. Let us now trace the path of imminent cultural destruction: Virgin girl has zero experience with the joys of her own body, with orgasm, with men, with sex toys or shower heads or good gynecological gizmongery. She then marries a man who will very likely have not the slightest clue (as he has had the same dreadful sexual miseducation as our fair virgin) as to what to do with a woman's body, who will, by most all accounts, be unable to tell an erogenous zone from an elbow, a clitoris from a belly button.
Voil�, the standard recipe for emotional, physical and spiritual catastrophe, for roughly 17 years of vague marital misery capped off by divorce and much therapy and four unhappy children and the profound and aching need located somewhere deep beneath the pelvic bone to try something, anything new and different and sexually liberating. |
This part really cracked me up. There's nothing like a hypothetical, obviously skewed scenario to "prove" your point. Wow. divorce, therapy, unhappy children and all because they didn't sleep around enough before marriage. If only they'd been looser!! When will people learn!?!? |
I have to agree that I laughed at that point too. It's like when a woman is unhappy and people comment that she needs to get laid. Right - that's going to solve everything. In reality, with all the schmucks we have running about the shop, it might even make her feel worse!  |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| Abortion wasn't required until the free love 60's rolled in. It was intorduced as a band aid to the sudden shattering of western society. You think its a necessity now, but society lived quite happily without cellphones 50 years ago. Killing a lot of defenseless babies is the price for your lack of self control. |
Abortions have been around forever. Prior to the sixties, they were available but illegal and unsafe. If a woman had the money, she could go to Europe or Mexico and get one, if she didn't, and were desperate, there was the back-alley abortionist ready to do irreperable damage to her.
There are all sorts of ancient remedies, herbs and such, that have been used for abortions for eons.
Comparing abortions to cell phones is insane.
By the way, I am reading a book now, The Third Chimpanzee, by Jared Diamond, that shows research from the 1940's that at least 10% of children born in one study were not the offspring of the husband of the mother. Promiscuity and extra-marital sex are normal human activity. Always was, always will be- it' a combination of the urge to spread the seed and the responsibility, and the pure pleasure the human animal gets from sex.
From Wikipedia:
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Ancient period
The first recorded evidence of induced abortion is from a Chinese document which records abortions performed upon royal concubines in China between the years 500 and 515 BC.[1] According to Chinese folklore, the legendary Emperor Shennong prescribed the use of mercury to induce abortions nearly 5000 years ago.[2]
There have been archaeological discoveries which would seem indicate early surgical attempts at the extraction of a fetus; however, such methods are not believed to have been common, given the infrequency with which they are mentioned in ancient medical texts.[3] Many of the methods employed in early and primitive cultures were non-surgical. Physical activities like strenuous labour, climbing, paddling, weightlifting, or diving were a common technique. Others included the use of irritant leaves, fasting, bloodletting, pouring hot water onto the abdomen, and lying on a coconut shell which had been heated.[4]
Hippocrates, the Greek physician whose famous Oath forbids abortion, nonetheless writes of having advised a dancer and prostitute who fell pregnant to jump up and down, touching her buttocks with her heels at each leap, so as to induce miscarriage.[5] Other writings attributed to him describe instruments, fashioned to dilate the cervix and curette inside of the uterus, which he used perform an abortion upon one of his patients.[6]
Tertullian, a 2nd century Christian theologian, also described surgical implements which were used in a procedure reminiscent of the modern dilation and evacuation. One tool had a "nicely-adjusted flexible frame" used for dilation, an "annular blade" used to curette, and a "blunted or covered hook" used for extraction. The other was a "copper needle or spike". He attributed ownership of such items to Hippocrates, Asclepiades, Erasistratus, Herophilus, and Soranus.[7] |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion
Last edited by desultude on Tue May 30, 2006 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| Abortion wasn't required until the free love 60's rolled in. It was intorduced as a band aid to the sudden shattering of western society. You think its a necessity now, but society lived quite happily without cellphones 50 years ago. Killing a lot of defenseless babies is the price for your lack of self control. |
Yeah yeah. But is it a sin for Christians to have sex outside of marriage? |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| What's ironic is that it wasn't uncommon for christians to marry off their daughters when they were 12 or 13 less than a hundred years ago. |
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AbbeFaria
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| What's ironic is that it wasn't uncommon for christians to marry off their daughters when they were 12 or 13 less than a hundred years ago. |
That's really kind of a stupid fact to just lay out there as a sign of the shocking or immoral actions of christians. Life expectancy one hundred or two hundred years ago was in the 30's and 40's. If you were lucky you made it to see your 50th birthday. So by 12 and 13, you were basically the equivalent of someone today being around 22 to 25. Assuming, of course, that you didn't get small pocks, influenza, plauge, die in childbirth or suffer a relatively small injury that would be a minor inconvience but which turned septic due to lack of antibiotics or just overall general medical knowledge. In the Victorian Era if a doctor couldn't diagnose a woman by examining her from the neck up or the waist down, then too bad for her. That's not across the board, of course, but it should give you an idea.
So it's not ironic at all. It was just a fact of life. If a woman wasn't married by twenty, she was an old maid. If you can only expect to live until you're 40, then 13 isn't all that young.
�S� |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:08 am Post subject: |
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The idea of a father and daughter, especially one as young as 6, standing up in a hall full of strangers and vowing abstinence until marriage is creepy and bizarre to the nth degree.
Ok, if you think pre-marital sex is wrong, you can tell your children that, but why the excruciating embarrassment of a public ceremony?
Do you also pledge in public not to steal or murder?
And of course, it's particularly sick because it's only girls and it's with their fathers. The father is made owner of his daughter's sexuality. Excuse me while I vomit.
Does a mother pledge to guard her son's virginity?
What surprises me is that no-one else on this thread appears surprised by this kind of behaviour. Is this what passes for normality where you all come from? So girls can be either AIDS-ridden, drug-using, promiscuous single mothers or know-nothing little virgins obedient to their Daddies. What a choice. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| Translation: Girls aren't slutty enough. Waaaaa! Waaaaa! |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
| Quote: |
Very well. Let us now trace the path of imminent cultural destruction: Virgin girl has zero experience with the joys of her own body, with orgasm, with men, with sex toys or shower heads or good gynecological gizmongery. She then marries a man who will very likely have not the slightest clue (as he has had the same dreadful sexual miseducation as our fair virgin) as to what to do with a woman's body, who will, by most all accounts, be unable to tell an erogenous zone from an elbow, a clitoris from a belly button.
Voil�, the standard recipe for emotional, physical and spiritual catastrophe, for roughly 17 years of vague marital misery capped off by divorce and much therapy and four unhappy children and the profound and aching need located somewhere deep beneath the pelvic bone to try something, anything new and different and sexually liberating. |
This part really cracked me up. There's nothing like a hypothetical, obviously skewed scenario to "prove" your point. Wow. divorce, therapy, unhappy children and all because they didn't sleep around enough before marriage. If only they'd been looser!! When will people learn!?!? |
I have to agree that I laughed at that point too. It's like when a woman is unhappy and people comment that she needs to get laid. Right - that's going to solve everything. In reality, with all the schmucks we have running about the shop, it might even make her feel worse! |
Yeah, the more I think about his scenario the more I shake my head. He implies that having sex with women a,b,c,d,e,f and g for a few years before getting married to woman X, would have made him better able to please woman X. Whereas 17 years of practice with woman X apparently did nothing to improve his ability to please her. Also, he had tried to make it seem that only girls were being taught to wait till marriage, but in his scenario, the man had in fact waited till marriage too and in his little fairy tale, the man's inexperience was the cause of marital discord. Hilarious. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| Abortion wasn't required until the free love 60's rolled in |
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahhahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What the heck do you think Cider House Rules was about? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| What surprises me is that no-one else on this thread appears surprised by this kind of behaviour. Is this what passes for normality where you all come from? |
No, that's not really considered normal behavior where I some from. Nor, however, is it considered really normal for the local newspaper to publish entire articles ridiculing the private religious practices of people in the community. |
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