Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Vollrath]

i'm sick of hearing how "this or that is illegal" about contracts. everyone keeps talking on this board like we have rights or something. what are you all on about, anyway? illegal or not, it seems we all keep signing (myself included) all these stupid contracts and then end up getting screwed because we were too dumb not to be tougher in the first place.

what's the point in calling something "illegal" when there's nothing anyone will do about it? if you call a contract "illegal" the owner will just find some other sucker to sign. they won't change. so what gives? why do we keep wasting our breath shouting "illegal" all the time when there ain't nothing nobody gonna do???????????

what we really need is some actual recourse for people stuck in illegal situations. it seems to me that the only options are to either deal with it, or run away into the korean sunset. both those options suck. i'm sure that almost everyone here has at least some minor illegal aspect to their contracts (most of them would be inconsequential, anyway), and yet who's accountable? nobody. a teacher raises a stink and gets fired thereby losing money and possible employability. either that or because of our evil western ways, if we argue with our bosses, we get an immediate demotion to bottom most rung until our year is up.

it's like, what's the point in having all these stupid "labor laws" when contracts are drawn up to either exploit holes, twist clauses, or outright defy the f'n law?? in most developed countries, don't most laws override contractual matters? like if the pay is less than minimum in a contract, doesn't the law require the employer to pay at least minimum anyway? seems like if (for the sake of argument) some contract offered less than minimum wage in korea, korean law enforcement wouldn't care. likewise with all the above cases of getting wages deducted for "security" or working 7 straight hours with no breaks, even though that is against the law, it seems that because a contract was signed, nobody cares.

what's the point of all this? nothing. just to say that it's pointless to scream "illegal" because there are no consequences to school owners who break laws. unless it's an infraction of any contractual matters. then the law cares suddenly. ARRRRGH.

i don't invite anyone to respond to this. this is just a rant.

i know, i know--the work we do here isn't all that tough and yes i do actually work at my school and i do enjoy what i do. plus i try to be as pleasant as possible with my boss. but when it comes to where our contracts violate the law, it just kills me that there's nothing we can do about it. it's just stupid whitie's fault for signing without becoming a lawyer first (or consulting one for a paltry 2 or 3 mill. yeah right!)

[TheUrbanMyth]

[Grotto]

Many people over here are also unaware of the illegal crap they have agreed to....and they go through hell! If people are aware of the criminal activity that the hogwan industry is awash in then there is a chance of change occuring.

As long as you have grads who dont care, dont do their homework and sign whatever is given to them....well then things wont change....although you will often read here on Daves about how bad they have been screwed over by their evil directors...when the reality is they screwed themselves over by agreeing to all the crap!

[Vollrath]

well that's what i'm talking about. agreeing to crap is of course the signer's (teacher's) fault, but two things that still bug me about it:

1. even though the things some people have agreed to are illegal, those people are screwed because they should have known better.

2. if we DID happen to "pack a backbone" and stand up to the boss, well...... see point number 1.

don't get me wrong here. i'm not even THAT dissatisfied with my job. it's just that i wish there was heavier involvement of SOME kind of agency that would regulate these kinds of things. i'm talking about even the smallest of details here. i mean people took the time to write up the labor standards act, so why is it so easy for academy owners not to follow it to the bleepin' letter? again, i'm not trying to open a can of worms. i'm NOT anti-korean or anything like that. i just wish private school owners were more accountable for the way they bend and manipulate laws here. just because some wet behind the ears pink nurpled teacher SIGNED UP to be taken advantage of SHOULDN'T be a good reason to dismiss it as "dum-dum's fault".

the bottome line is that i really like being here and i think this country has SO MUCH potential, that i hate seeing so many people turned sour on korea because of how these academy owners operate.

[bellum99]

Nope. The teachers have a backbone but they are poor as dirt. Many teachers coming over here have absolutely no money. They have to take it up the behind because they usually don't have 2 cents. What is really funny is that when they actually do start making money they spend it all on cheap women and drinking instead of saving it for the rainy day coming.
Nothing is funnier to me than when a teacher posts here saying "help, help..the boss is hurting me but I have no money to run away and it is only my second year". People never learn, so why bother helping them. Here is a hint people ...SAVE THE MONEY.
It is not the bosses fault if someone is stupid enough to sign something bad even though they read it. The boss will try to get as much as he can , and pay as little as possible. Don't blame the boss because it doesn't change anything (he knows a new sucker will sign the contract)...people need to stop signing and doing stupid things and then the boss will have to change.

[Demophobe]

I guess there needs to be somewhere one can look and find a definitive answer on exactly what is "illegal".

The contracts seem to get away with a lot due to ignorance on the foreign teachers' part, and perhaps the Koreans exploit the fact that first, the teacher doesn't know much about Korea, and second, the language barrier.

Really, I surmise that most people sign bad contracts because they just don't know better and there is nowhere they can go to check.

EFL law is a pay site, and that really is a hurdle to many. When people post contracts here, I really can't be bothered to look them over so carefully; it takes time, and even Grotto has stopped doing it.

I think this gets back to Homer's idea of a "Newbie Forum" part of this board. Create a "Newbie FAQ", try to make it as complete as possible, and have certain people assigned to the forum who are noted for not passing off misinformation to cull through the bull and sift out the gold. This place is rife with experienced people, they just need to be tapped into.

Post some "typical" contracts there, a GEPIK/EPIK contract, an English camp contract (though it seems the 'bad' contracts come from hagwons; most GEPIK 'crimes' occur outside the contract and come from the school staff), and perhaps most importantly, the most common areas where the employers cut corners or break the laws.

It seems there are some general areas where employers always seem to try to sneak around first...medical payments, pension..then airfares, firing a month early...

I dunno. Whoever gets "assigned" to a newbie forum would certainly have their work cut out for them...heck, it would almost be a full-time job in itself! It's a good idea though....make this place more of a resource than it already is.

[TheUrbanMyth]

[Thunndarr]

How about when the people in charge of protecting worker's rights don't know what the *beep* they are doing?

Me: My boss is making a deduction for severance pay out of my salary every month.

Labor Board Dumbass: So?

Me: Um, I'm pretty sure that's illegal.

Labor Board Dumbass: Check your contract.

Me: Dillhole, it doesn't matter if it's in my contract or not (it isn't), it's ILLEGAL!

Labor Board Dumbass: Let me get my supervisor.

At which point we repeate the entire conversation.

[Picotrain]

I told my employer that the tax they were charging was too high. I was being charged 4%, as it said in the contact, but the words used were "Korean income tax(4%)." I told him that he could only charge us for income tax, the rate of which is set by a table produced by the national tax service. I called them (the NTS) anonymously and they agreed with me. I told the boss that it was illegal to charge me W80,000 when it should have been less than W30,000. First he tried to claim that the extra taxes were for plane tickets and apartment taxes, but I disputed that saying that they weren't in the contract. Then he claimed he was charging the proper rate by using a Korean webpage. Despite the fact that it was Korean, I wasn't naive enough to overlook the fact that he stated my salary was 2.4 million won rather than 2.0. And evene then the number was off by a small margin. After constant pressure and threats of visiting the nearby Ministry of Labor, we are now getting the tax rates we should be paying, despite the contrary being written into the contract.

[Vollrath]

ThUrbanMyth,

you're wrong--people who signed to and agreed to illegal clauses in their contracts are (unless the clause says to rape and murder children) bound to fulfill whatever crazy crud the boss says they have to do.

if you think they don't have to just because it's illegal, well, i'd like you to explain who's got your back in such a situation? it definitely isn't any labor board or immigration.

and when it comes to saving money, i think most people DO save money here. it's unfair to say the *majority* of ESL teachers blow their money on prostitutes and booze. that's crazy. but two things again spring to mind:

a) why SHOULD it cost thousands of dollars just to prove that the law is on your side???? isn't the law supposed to be there to protect you in the first place?

b) many people send their money overseas and don't have ready access to it if something comes up.

most contracts aren't illegal to the point where you need huge amounts of money ASAP or you're done for. most contracts are just so irritatingly twisted to the point where it would indeed take months and months and lots of money to resolve the issues. THAT'S what bugs me.

as a side note: did you know that in this country, if you sue someone and win, you still have to hire another lawyer to make sure the defendant actually pays up?? that's an example of the crazy justice system that you face should you care to take matters down that route... so litigation is the worst idea because not only are you foreign, but also the time and cost makes it SO not worth it.

that double-sucks.

again, i'd like to reiterate that I KNOW it's the teacher's fault for agreeing to bull kaka. that's still no excuse for owners being such tyrants.

[Vollrath]

yo UrbanMyth,

sorry the latter half of the post isn't directed at you, although it looks like it

[Grotto]

[Vollrath]

if you go ahead and contact the labor board, then you face unpleasant consequences that far outweigh the benefit of being "right"... such as

+dirty looks and shovelling $H!T for the rest of the year
+crazy schedules that meet labor law, but are of the utmost inconvenience
+the worst classes ALL the time
+possibly even being fired for some fabricated reason (after all, we KNOW they pull lots of "parental complaints" out of thin air)

even if we speak the language (as i can fairly enough) we hold NO water when it comes to defending ourselves should the owner decide to play nasty.

maybe the tax thing is the only thing the government will really care about because it causes THEM loss of revenue. otherwise, i'm not convinced the labor board gives a hoot about whitie X at hagwon Y. like if the contract stipulates "dinner break is only 20 minutes" instead of the standard 30, it's too small an infraction for them to care. and yes it's not a life-threatening or ball-busting infraction, but it's just that--an infraction. contracts are LITTERED with little things like this all the time and people don't even realize it. sometimes the academy owners themselves don't even know the law!! what they need is for the government to supply the hagwon with standard issue contracts that EVERYONE gets, let them change hours or wage, but leave all the rest the same. that way they also ensure that proper taxes will be deducted.

[TheUrbanMyth]

[TexasPete]

Saying it's the teacher's fault for being dumb, not doing their homework, or not knowing Korean law is not fair. E

Even on this message board, full of people who have been here years or know plenty of Korean, no one seems to be able to agree on the law. Person A says thing X is illegal, person B says no it's not and still person C says it's illegal, but not if thing Y is there. The point being that no one can agree on what the heck the law is here.

I've tried looking online before about what the various laws and procedures were for doing things such as getting a visa. It's easy enough to find certain discussions about the procedure, but dang near impossible to find official documents and procedures written in clear, easy-to-understand English anywhere on the Web. Sure, some sites claim that this is how one does something or that this is the law, but laws and procedures change from year to year and sometimes translations are vague or just plain wrong. It also doesn't help when Korean employees of various agencies don't seem to know their own laws.

How should a foreigner be expected to know their rights or the laws here when Koreans--whose job it is to know--don't even seem to know it? On my last visa process my boss--who's fluent in Korean and English--was told contradictory things by the DOJ about what was needed for my visa application and there was very little English information to point me too on my end in the 'States. Certainly not many sites updated regularly at any rate.

Even the process of getting my ARC was complicated. Looking online told me i needed a bunch of documents (i had to find this out myself as apparently the Korean's in charge of being our liaison didn't know) and transcripts, plus a form to fill out. It turns out i didn't need any transcripts and only one form and document. I had everything right and in order, but the reality was inconsistant with the information provided online.

Law and reality are often not very consistant in this country. I know my own accounts and interactions with the law and ahve read so many other horror stories on this website (i've been lurking a while) of Koreans arbitrarily interpreting the law as they see fit or not knowing it at all. Yes, we should try to know the actual laws as much as we can here, but can anyone point out a site or book or something which clearly states our rights and Korean laws that would apply most to us and is updated regularly?

I'll admit i can be a little naive on some things. But, isn't it a sad state of affairs that Foreigners in this country have to expect to be back stabbed and screwed over any way their employer thinks they can get away with it? I wonder if it's the same with Korean employees?