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The Grammar Game!
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cubanlord wrote:
Qinella wrote:
cubanlord wrote:
Satori wrote:
Should be "a high fever", as fever has not been mentioned before, meaning that the reference to fever has to use the general "a" not the specific "the".


WRONG!()@*!()@*!)@(! HAHAHA..GOT ONE FOR ME. Whenever you are using a subordinate clause (in a complex sentence), the subject MUST come immediately after it.

Although she doesn't seem to be sick, the high fever is evident in Jane.

Corrected one: Although she doesn't seem to be sick, Jane evidently has a high fever.

You have an ambigious (sp?) pronoun reference in the dependent clause. It must be specified in the independent clause.

PHEW... Embarassed enough for me. Ok....someone else.



Why is the pronoun ambiguous?

What did you mean when you said the subject must immediately follow the subordinate clause? Does that mean that you can't even use articles or adjectives? What about this example:

Although it fluctuates unpredictably at times, people still believe the stock market can be a worthy investment.

That seems fine to me.


Ok: The ambiguous is referencing she in the subordinate clause. We do not know who she is, and since the sub. clause is in a complex sentence, that means that the following idependent clause must (in any writing type) explain who she is. We have no idea who she is in the complex sentence. It wouldn't be accepted if you had written:

Although it fluctuates unpredictably at times, they still believe the stock market can be a worthy investment.

My question would then be: who are they? Do you see what I am saying? Pronouns are meant to take the place of nouns once the noun in question is understood. In this cause, the subject noun....well......is missing.

yes, you could place an article or an adjective before it. However, the noun that the dependent clause is describing must follow immediately after those placed articles or adjectives.


Tsk.... folks, the problem with these interpretations is the lack of surrounding context. "They" is perfectly acceptable... depending on what came BEFORE. Where in the world, other than ads, do you find single sentences randomly written? You would do better to state in which case(s) your example does or does not work.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:05 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

CuLo,

I think you're confusing rules about dangling modifiers.

When we reduce clauses, we run into this problem:

While riding the bus to school, my phone rang.

This suggests that your phone was riding the bus to school.

However:

While I was riding the bus to school, my phone rang.

is correct.

"I" am not my phone.

Qinella is right.
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Privateer



Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Although she doesn't seem to be sick, the high fever is evident in Jane.


There's nothing wrong with this as long as there's a prior context for 'high fever' as implied by use of the definite article 'the'. So if you said 'Jane has a high fever' first and followed it with the above sentence it would be ok. It's hard to think of a situation where someone had a high fever - which was evident - and yet didn't seem to be sick, but it's conceivable.
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tomato



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another misplaced modifier:

Lincoln wrote the Gettysburg Address while travelling on the back of an envelope.

And we certainly must not forget the Groucho Marx classic:

One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas.
How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
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tomato



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I'm sorry, sir, we don't serve colored people."
"Oh, that's okay, I don't eat colored people."

"Make me a pepperoni pizza."
"Abracadabra! You are now a pepperoni pizza!"

"Call me a taxi."
"Okay, you're a taxi."

It's too bad we can't translate these jokes into Korean.
The word endings would remove the ambiguity.
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identity



Joined: 22 Apr 2006

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

say goodnight gracie
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tomato



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Identity's sentence is ambiguous because of the lack of punctuation.
I don't know whether that means "Say 'Goodnight,' Gracie" or "Say 'Goodnight, Gracie.'"

That reminds me of the boots-without-shoes parlor game:
You go around the room asking each person to "say boots without shoes."
You express dissatisfaction, because most players will think you meant "Say 'Boots without shoes,'" so they will say "Boots without shoes."
Rather, you meant "Say 'Boots' without 'Shoes,'" so you will only be satisfied if a person finally says "Boots."

A similar game is Queen of the Mountain.
A girl sits on a chair placed on a table.
An male initiate is brought in, and the Queen says, "Say who you love the most."
The initiate names his favorite cross-sex peers one by one, but the Queen continues to express dissatisfaction.
The Queen finally expresses satisfaction only when the initiate says, "Who you love the most."
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Qinella



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That boots without shoes game is guaranteed to make you the drunken arsehole at any given party, even if you're not drunk. Trust me, I'm the king of devising annoying party-wide games when I'm drunk. That one sounds perfect.

Sorry, that was off-topic. Here's another grammatically unright sentence for your enjoyment.

Identity had been sending me threatening PMs, which made me smile.


Note for EFLTrainer: Please take the sentence as it is, with no context. Razz
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tomato



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was in past perfect, and it should have been present perfect.
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Qinella



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PP Continuous, but we'll count that as half a point. Surprised
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identity



Joined: 22 Apr 2006

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, i was referring to the post above mine. george burns would say to his wife gracie allen at the end of their show, "say goodnight gracie", and gracie, of course, would reply, "goodnight gracie".

my lack of punctuation has nothing to do with it, although if you wanted to get technical, some more quotes would clarify things.
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tomato



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shall we compile a list of famous ungrammatical quotations?
I'll start off:

A rose is a rose is a rose.
--Gertrude Stein

It is an honor that I dream not of.
--Shakespeare

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
--Bert Lance

A hero ain't nothing but a sandwich.
--Alice Childress

You aint' nothin' but a hound dog.
--Elvis Presley

There ain't no such animal!
--unknown
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomato wrote:
Identity's sentence is ambiguous because of the lack of punctuation.
I don't know whether that means "Say 'Goodnight,' Gracie" or "Say 'Goodnight, Gracie.'"

That reminds me of the boots-without-shoes parlor game:
You go around the room asking each person to "say boots without shoes."
You express dissatisfaction, because most players will think you meant "Say 'Boots without shoes,'" so they will say "Boots without shoes."
Rather, you meant "Say 'Boots' without 'Shoes,'" so you will only be satisfied if a person finally says "Boots."


Ah, but, "Say 'boots' without shoes" would drive them crazier, and be so much more fun.
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identity



Joined: 22 Apr 2006

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so would holding them down and grating their bellies with a cheese grater. what's your point?
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tomato



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion, the most ingenious puns are the ones which confuse more than one pair of words. Here are some examples:

Quote:
The big moron and the little moron sat on a fence.
The big moron fell off.
Why didn't the little moron fall off.
Because he was a little more on.


Quote:
Why can't a bicycle stand up by itself?
Because it is two-tired.


Quote:
How do you drive a baby buggy?
Tickle its toes.


I just remembered that this is supposed to be a grammar thread.
I'll let someone else analyze these jokes grammatically.
I can't because it is midnight right now and I am excessively fatigued.
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