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Canada in the Bulls Eye
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My primary point is this. We are having a hard enough time as it is bringing the Christian conservatives into the 19th century. Why make it harder on ourselves?

And about my initial post, where I slammed the "women" (if that is what they are) for their parenting ability. The caption of that picture, from Yahoo news, listed them as family of the terrorist suspects. We already know what kind of men those families raised. Every slam I made at those people and their ability to raise well adjusted men was true. And, if their eyes and the small amount of skin around them are any indication, they don't look much darker than me in the summer (except for the one woman in the back, but 3/4 ain't bad).
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:16 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Most Muslims think that homosexuals should be murdered.


It becomes very tiresome debating with someone who constantly misquotes and misrespresents what you say. I never said that, I quite clearly stated that "Most Islamic clerics agree that homosexuals should be killed".

Quote:
This is an unprovable, BS generalization.


Probably unprovable, as are many things,


OK, we'll tee off here. You're bothered by me misquoting you.

Misquoting what? Misquoting your actual point, which you acknowledge is unprovable.

Oops! I misquoted you. You said it's probably unprovable that "most Islamic clerics agree that homosexuals should be killed".

Quote:
but I think it is a fair assumption based on;


Fair assumption shmair assumption. I could give a donkey's testes what you think is a "fair assumption".

When you make a statement about the majority of anybody, the burden of proof is on you.

And you have no statistics on Islamic clerics, do you?

As I've already explained, Shariah law is not some "all-encompassing" principle you can attribute to all Muslims. It is interpreted in very different ways.

Quote:
1. The clear penalties for homosexuality as laid down by Shariah Law.
2. The centrality of Shariah Law in Islam, and especially to those people who would take their religion seriously enough to become an Imam.


So, you're taking it upon yourself to interpret Islamic texts, which you then offer as evidence that most Islamic clerics would like homosexuals to be killed.

At the same time, you know no Muslims personally? Is that right?

Quote:
Quote:
Most Muslim clerics accept Shariah Law as Christian clerics accept the resurrection?


I would say almost all Christian clerics accept the resurrection, and that most Muslim clerics accept Shariah Law. I have no evidence for either assumption, but I still maintain they are fair assumptions.


I would say almost all clerics of all faiths accept that they breathe oxygen.

Does that make a point/prove something?

Quote:
Quote:
On the other hand, there are places where Shariah law is not observed by local Muslims


But we are not talking about observance but whether Islamic clerics believe in Shariah Law.


Sharia law is interpreted in many ways, and I don't think those Muslims are practicing without a cleric.

Quote:
Quote:
Shariah is more like Leviticus in the Bible.


It's not. Shariah is a clear legal framework that is still relevant to Muslims today, is advocated by a myriad of Muslim organisations and supported by most Muslim clerics. It is a blueprint for organising a Muslim state. It is nothing like Leviticus.


OK. Sharia is a "clear legal framework" if you also accept that it was split 4 ways in interpretation a few hundred years ago.

Quote:
Quote:
Christianity doesn't approve of homosexuality.

Islam doesn't approve of homosexuality.

BigV, that's parity.


How many Christian clerics advocate killing homosexuals, and how many Christian majority nations have the kind of punishments that exist in Muslim nations?


Yes, there are more extremists practicng Islam.

Quote:
Get back to me on that before you suffocate in your own relativism.


Get back to me when you've known a Muslim personally and can do better than relying on your own interpretation of the Koran.


Quote:
Quote:
as I've said before, you can't stereotype a religion of millions.


No, but you can make make observations about the social mores and values in Muslim nations, and recognise that they are largely incompatible with our own. Or you could regurgitate meaningless platitudes that serve only to satisfy your own liberal dogma.


And you can make statements like "most" when you think yourself particularly clever. And you can justify your position on your own self-fed belief that you're incredibly clever. But a thinking man would back up his statistics with evidence, something to stand on.

You're inventing them. Based on "observations".

Quote:
I state again. Muslims (for the most part) despise people like you, and everything you stand for. When will you understand that?


Muslims despise people like me and all that I stand for?

I'm not a Christian, but I can get along with Christians.

I'm not a Muslim, but I can get along wth Muslims.

You (for the most part) choose to define Muslims by what you know of a book.

A major reason I moved abroad was to learn about people different from me, not to put them in my cookie cutter.

I've learned a lot.

When you know a few Muslims, I'll be happy to talk with you again.

Till then, I think I'm done with our discussion.
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Tarheel13



Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:25 am    Post subject: My, oh my, it is a wonderful world in which we live... Reply with quote

Here's one for thought:

The statistics on sanity are that one out of every
four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of
your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Shariah law is not some "all-encompassing" principle you can attribute to all Muslims. It is interpreted in very different ways.


Yes, I remember that you have been an apologist for Shariah in the past. Tell me, what are the differing interpretations of Shariah Law, in regards to homosexuality and apostasy?

I didn't attribute it to 'all Muslims', but was specifically talking about Muslim clerics, people who were religious enough to devote their entire lives to a religion of which Shariah is central, and we all know what Shariah says about gays.

Quote:
you're taking it upon yourself to interpret Islamic texts


Shariah Law commands death for homosexuals. Please feel free to read up about this, or go to Islamonline.com and ask one of their Imams. They'll give you advice on such important topics as beating your wife, and whether homosexuals should be killed. Please report back what our friendly, moderate neighbourhood Imam tells you.

Quote:
At the same time, you know no Muslims personally? Is that right?


We've been through this before. Yes, I do know Muslims. This is entirely irrelevant to a discussion of;

1. The prevailing views of Muslim clerics
2. The social and cultural values prevalent in the Muslim world, which I would argue are largely incompatible with the West.

Quote:
Sharia law is interpreted in many ways, and I don't think those Muslims are practicing without a cleric.


You're getting out of your depth again. Shariah Law is not interpreted 'in many ways', and it is only in place in a few Muslim countries. Where it is in place, there is little 'interpretation' about whether homosexuals should be killed. The debate is about 'how' they should be killed.

In other Muslim countries, like Egypt, Algeria, and Jordan, Shariah is not in place not because it is not popular, but because the government has been brutally repressing Islam for many decades. In places like Tunisia, Imams are actually told what they can and cannot preach. However, amongst the people, there is considerable support for Shariah (the Muslim Brotherhood did very well in a recent election in Egypt despite election rigging by the government) and in Algeria the Islamists won an election, which was then nullified.

Quote:
Sharia is a "clear legal framework" if you also accept that it was split 4 ways in interpretation a few hundred years ago.


If you're talking about the four schools of Sunni jurisprudence, please tell me how they differ on their interpretation of punishments for apostasy and homosexuality.

Quote:
your own interpretation of the Koran.


Not mine you tedious fool, but the interpretation of all four schools of Islamic jurisprudence. What do they say about punishments for homosexuality and apostasy?

Quote:
I'm not a Muslim, but I can get along wth Muslims.


Really? Go live in a Muslim country and start campaigning for gay rights and the rights of religious minorities to practice their religion freely. Let me know how you get along.

Quote:
When you know a few Muslims, I'll be happy to talk with you again.


When you learn how to debate without resorting to entirely irrelevant information and misrepresentation, get back to me. Meanwhile, I'll be waiting for you to explain these various interpretations of Shariah Law that you keep talking about.
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Tarheel13



Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy, Big Verne. Now, down here we don't cotton to queers either. You're either a man or a woman, and anything in between is a hairdresser.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In Canada, a large segment of the Muslim community remains segregated from mainstream culture. Many community leaders say they like it that way. But some Canadians say a push for integration is needed following new threats of domestic terrorism. North Country Public Radio's Brian Mann reports from Toronto.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5473431
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=6ab8bade-5912-44f2-83ff-b2d1f2c953be&k=62257
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RachaelRoo



Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Location: Anywhere but Ulsan!

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

igotthisguitar wrote:
http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=6ab8bade-5912-44f2-83ff-b2d1f2c953be&k=62257


I just clicked on your stupid link and it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RachaelRoo wrote:
igotthisguitar wrote:


http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=6ab8bade-5912-44f2-83ff-b2d1f2c953be&k=62257


I just clicked on your stupid link and it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
Laughing

Nothing to do with this thread? Really?

Well, i suppose there are those would agree with you, and then those who don't.


World's Elite Gather To Brainstorm In Secret

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_group



A private security guard and two Ottawa police officers stand guard outside a west end Ottawa hotel Thursday June 8, 2006 where members of the Bilderberg Group, a collection of the worlds richest and most influential people, will be meeting until Sunday.
(CP PHOTO/Tom Hanson)

Andrew Mayeda and Glen McGregor, CanWest News Service; Ottawa Citizen

Published: Friday, June 09, 2006

OTTAWA -- Greeted at the airport by limousine drivers holding single-letter "B" signs, global luminaries such as Henry Kissinger, David Rockefeller and Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands began arriving in Ottawa Thursday for the annual gathering of the ultra-secretive Bilderberg Group.

Over the next three days, they and other prominent political and business leaders from North America and Europe are expected to discuss issues such as the security threat posed by Iran and the direction of oil markets.

The group's discreet approach was evident as attendees arrived at the Ottawa International Airport.

Outside the airport, a phalanx of limousines queued to ferry guests to the Brookstreet Hotel, where security guards with ear pieces kept watch over the barricaded entrance to the hotel parking lot.

Limos were also dispatched to the nearby Shell Aerocentre to retrieve participants arriving on private aircraft. Some attendees had the single-letter "B" on their luggage tags.

Former U.S. defence policy adviser Richard Perle shot down criticism about the secrecy of the group's meetings.

"It's a private organization," he said. He denied the charge, advanced by Bilderberg critics, that the organization crafts public policy behind closed doors.

"It discusses public policy," he said.

Perle also dismissed suggestions the group's heavy representation from the oil industry gives it influence over global energy prices.

"If it did, I'd be trading on oil futures," he said.

A former assistant secretary of defence to President Ronald Reagan, Perle is still considered an influential adviser in U.S. conservative circles. He advised President George W. Bush and is said to be a close friend of Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

In 2003, he publicly chastised the Canadian government for refusing to send troops to Iraq and warned that "lame-duck" Prime Minister Jean Chretien would be embarrassed once weapons of mass destruction were found.

Also seen arriving Thursday were Jorma Ollila, chairman of Royal Dutch Shell, and Egil Myklebust, chairman of Scandinavian Airlines.

According to an unsigned press release, presumably by Bilderberg organizers, attendees will also include New York Governor George Pataki, former Iraqi deputy prime minister Ahmad Chalabi, the heads of Coca-Cola, Credit Suisse, the Royal Bank of Canada, a number of media moguls, and cabinet ministers from Spain and Greece.

The release confirmed this year's meeting will deal with energy issues, Iran, the Middle East, terrorism, immigration, Russia, European-American relations and Asia.

"The meeting is private to encourage frank and open discussion," said the release.

"There will be no press conference."


Last edited by igotthisguitar on Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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RachaelRoo



Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Location: Anywhere but Ulsan!

PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Explain the connection.
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RachaelRoo



Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Location: Anywhere but Ulsan!

PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on, IGTG, explain the connection.
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roo Joo ...

Why all the excitement? You writing a book or something?

More like in the "SPOTLIGHT" Wink
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Roo Joo ...

Why all the excitement? You writing a book or something?

More like in the "SPOTLIGHT"


IGTG:

I think the problem is that, when you refuse to explain the nature of the connection that you yourself introduced into the discussion, you give the impression that you don't really know what the connection is.

I mean, consider the following discussion...

A: You know, that IGTG guy has some pretty deep connections to the international heroin trade.

B: Really? What sort of connections?

A: Well, you know, secret bank accounts, Templar initiation rites, the crow flies at dawn.

B: Umm, okay. But how does that relate to IGTG and the international heroin trade?

A: Ah-ha! Are you in The Spotlight??

I'm sure you'll agree, IGTG, that the above exchange proves nothing about any allegations against you. And quite frankly, I would say the same about your efforts to draw a connection between the Bilderberg group and the alleged bomb plot in Ontario.
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand wrote:
I would say the same about your efforts to draw a connection between the Bilderberg group and the alleged bomb plot in Ontario.


Shocked

Now where exactly did i state that? Confused

OTOH ... before you rush off to lecture others on their "flawed" logic, i have two very simple words for you:

FALSE ASSUMPTION
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RachaelRoo



Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Location: Anywhere but Ulsan!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

igotthisguitar wrote:
On the other hand wrote:
I would say the same about your efforts to draw a connection between the Bilderberg group and the alleged bomb plot in Ontario.


Shocked

Now where exactly did i state that? Confused

OTOH ... before you rush off to lecture others on their "flawed" logic, i have two very simple words for you:

FALSE ASSUMPTION


This thread is about the arrest of 17 men in Toronto for an alleged terrorist bombing plot.

You posted an article about a meeting of the Bilderberg group.

Explain the connection.
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