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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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 Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Believe what you like; it's of no consequence to me as I know what's what. |
It doesn't matter what you or I believe. Just don't go around spreading misinformation.
Fact: Korean teaching salaries are among the highest in the world.
Fact: All Korean teachers receive a salary bonus.
Fact: Native teachers at public schools teach more hours and work during holidays but receive NO BONUS.
Fact: The government is now trying to introduce a differentiated bonus system.
My opinion: That's a good thing.
Demophobe's opinion: That's a bad thing. |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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This is lovely girls.
But do you suppose with your 71 years of combined experience you might find an online pay scale and list of other benefits/compensations, in Korean, for us lowly spectators to amuse ourselves with whilst you two do the tongue tango here? |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sure you have google like everyone else, but this will get you started in the right direction:
"The average statutory salary per teaching hour after 15 years of experience is $35 in primary education, $43 in lower secondary education, and $52 in upper secondary (general) education across OECD countries (OECD 2000.) For primary education, the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Mexico have relatively low salary costs per hour of instruction ($13, $15, and $16, respectively); by contrast, costs are relatively high in Denmark ($4 , Germany ($49), South Korea ($62), and Switzerland ($4." |
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UncleAlex
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: Degrees in Education? |
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Degrees are valued by assessing the quality of education, which is poor in
Korea, where quantity and facts supersede quality and creativity. |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Cool stats.
Now, besides being angry that you signed a contract that is so unfair, what's your point?
You think the bonus system is wrong, and I think it's fine.
That's it? Ok then. Enjoy yourself. |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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Cool stats.
Now, besides being angry that you signed a contract that is so unfair, what's your point?
You think the bonus system is wrong, and I think it's fine.
That's it? Ok then. Enjoy yourself. |
For someone who "doesn't want to argue" you sure try hard to light the fire under my ass.
I made my point very clearly. Foreign public school teachers should be entitled to the same bonus that Korean teachers receive. Why would I give a damn about Korean teachers b*tching and moaning about how the bonus system is about to change when I think the whole deal is bogus in the first place? And frankly, I can't understand why any foreign teacher would give a damn. Why do you? Because your wife is a public school teacher?
I've no doubt your intentions are honest, Demo, but they are certainly misguided. You would never intentionally behave like an Uncle Tom, correct?
I know you are a man of reason because you used to believe that PC gaming was superior to console gaming, but you eventually came around and saw the light. I'm sure you will with this issue as well. |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
I'm sure you have google like everyone else, but this will get you started in the right direction:
"The average statutory salary per teaching hour after 15 years of experience is $35 in primary education, $43 in lower secondary education, and $52 in upper secondary (general) education across OECD countries (OECD 2000.) For primary education, the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Mexico have relatively low salary costs per hour of instruction ($13, $15, and $16, respectively); by contrast, costs are relatively high in Denmark ($4, Germany ($49), South Korea ($62), and Switzerland ($4." |
Read closer sweetheart.
I'm saying you two uber-turkeys(of 71 years experience combined) would be better employed finding the Korean info online. I am sure that all that info is listed somewhere--or someone y'all know has access to it.
That would lend a little nip to the catfight, wouldn't it?
Hugs and kisses. |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Korean Teachers have always had bonuses. So what? Would you rather have a salary of 1 miilion/ month and a 1 million bonus every other month, or a salary of 2 million a month and no bonus? For comparison purposes you have to look at the bottom line. Whether the bottom line includes bonuses or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.
Public school teachers in Korea get paid according to a salary scale that is based on seniority. You start at the bottom of the scale and after 38 years you get up to the top of the scale.
Korean teachers also have duties and responsibilities that foreign teachers don't have. How much extra work they have depends on the school, which department they are assigned to and on how diligent they are. Last year my wife was in the school affairs dept. and she spent far more time on that than she did on teaching and lesson prep. She worked almost every day of summer and winter vacations, many Sundays and evenings and for one stretch of a month or so, was on the phone every night till 10 calling all the alumni, promoting the school reunions. Some of that extra work was paid, some was not. In her 20th year she made about 54 million.
Foreign teachers may not get much in the way of raises, but they also don't have to start out at the bottom of the scale and work their way up. It seems like a reasonable trade off to me. Bonuses are a non-issue. |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
For someone who "doesn't want to argue" you sure try hard to light the fire under my ass.
I made my point very clearly. Foreign public school teachers should be entitled to the same bonus that Korean teachers receive. Why would I give a damn about Korean teachers b*tching and moaning about how the bonus system is about to change when I think the whole deal is bogus in the first place? And frankly, I can't understand why any foreign teacher would give a damn. Why do you? Because your wife is a public school teacher?
I've no doubt your intentions are honest, Demo, but they are certainly misguided. You would never intentionally behave like an Uncle Tom, correct?
I know you are a man of reason because you used to believe that PC gaming was superior to console gaming, but you eventually came around and saw the light. I'm sure you will with this issue as well. |
mack, that fire is always there mate...that's just you. You think it's all bogus, unfair and that they are overpaid. That's fine. As I said before, think what you will. Changing your mind is futile; you obviously have stronger conviction than I care to attempt to chip away at.
"Uncle tom". Nice. Keep it above the crotch man.
Foreign teachers don't get the bonus, and never will. In a word, just don't sign if it means so much to you. Just saying here, but I make pretty good money and honestly, I don't need a bonus to make my job worthwhile.
Why do I deserve it? It's not in my contract. I willingly signed. I don't deserve anything outside of that paper. Sorry if that sounds like laying down to you, but it's the fact mate. Rail against your own decisions if you must, but I accept what I choose and get on with it.
Would I like a bonus? Sure! Who wouldn't want more money? Is it a big deal to me? Nope. I get good raises and many perks that are actually more important to me than money. (time off, easier workloads)
I see how hard my wife works and see the sort of stuff she has to put up with and I believe that she is worth every won she makes. This goes for a host of other teachers as well. They put up with a heck of a lot more than I. Perhaps not in terms of class hours, but responsibilities, pressure to continue studying (업그래이드) mountains of paperwork, social pressures...the list is long of things that we as foreigners don't even see let alone have to be accountable for.
I work more class hours than my wife, but overall, she puts in more time. There is little doubt in my mind that this stands true for most foreign teachers vs. Korean teachers. When we go home, we are free. When they go home, they often still have a load of work hanging over them.
Yeah, I give a darn because my wife is directly affected by it, and thus, I am as well. What's wrong with you, man? Isn't that a valid reason to care? It's good enough for me and I suspect it would be for the majority of others here as well.
I have no quarrell with you, good sir knight. We will agree to disagree and move along. As I said, I don't argue on the net....it just doesn't make any sense to me at all. I haven't been trying to goad you; I would say it's you who has taken a far more aggressive stance in this thread.
Anyways, it's good to banter, and I will leave it at that.
@ flotsam: You just aren't there yet. Stop being so needy. |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Demophobe wrote: |
@ flotsam: You just aren't there yet. Stop being so needy. |
But I do have needs.
And if you could provide a rubric, in Korean, that shows me the current status of my needs and when I will be there, you would be making yourself useful.
Many tanks.
([sic] On tanks: as in Panzers up your ass freaky avatar boy.) |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Foreign teachers don't get the bonus, and never will. |
Because they don't know about it!!!!!!!!!!!!
My whole GODDAM POINT!!!!!!
If more foreigners knew about it they would bring up the issue before they signed the contract. Actually, that's just dreaming because most teachers here are so goddam needy they'll sign any old thing.
But it bothers me when folks just "lay down". For instance, when my superiors attempted to "adjust" my contract I told them where to shove it and moved on to the next job. If more people acted like me, the contracts would get better; the negotiations would open up.
That's a fact, mate.
Of course you're going to support your better half. And you're in the unique position of suggesting to your wife (egging her on, really) to introduce into the maelstrom the idea of giving the bonus to foreign teachers at public schools. She's got nothing to lose, according to your own testimony (it's not a conspiracy, after all!)
This is not arguing. You don't want to get into an argument with me. This is simply a healthy debate, and one which I wish more public school teachers would read. |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
But it bothers me when folks just "lay down". For instance, when my superiors attempted to "adjust" my contract I told them where to shove it and moved on to the next job. If more people acted like me, the contracts would get better; the negotiations would open up.
That's a fact, mate.
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That's actually conjecture; nothing to do with facts. I think more towards factual would be to say we will never get the bonus.
For all the shortage of teachers there is, telling an employer to take a hike is akin to scooping water out of the ocean. It makes a difference, but miniscule and only for a moment, as more teachers who will sign come in a take your place.
Sad but true. I'm not so sure about being "needy", but really, think about it.
"I will go to Korea and hold out for work on my tourist visa until the government caves in and gives me a bonus, or sit here in my country until it changes, then I will go."
Yeah, well...that just ain't gonna happen.
mack, I never took you for an idealist, that's for sure. Who could disagree with you fundamentally? However, the only way to that perfect world is a union, and then we will be right there with the Korean teachers, shouting for our 'dues'. They have what you want, yes? Seems kind of ironic, but then again, I may be missing your point or reading past it.
Still, I'm not sure why you think that we are 'entitled' to that bonus. Not being contentious, I just don't see it. Perhaps I undervalue myself or something, but it really never occurred to me that the way it is right now is so unfair.
I feel that there are a number of things being overlooked in the cry for total equality; the majority of foreigners here aren't trained teachers (the "quality" of the locally trained teachers isn't a factor), generally don't speak the language, generally don't stay for that long, and don't do as much work outside the classroom. (administrative, self-study or "upgrade" stuff that most teachers must do on their holidays) Heck, we aren't even Korean. I think all of these things (and the ones that elude me right now) have some bearing on the overall equation. It's not just as simple as "we are in the same building, doing more classes".
My wife is all for getting foreigners more rights here in all areas of life, not just on the payscale. What she won't do, and I wouldn't ask her to, is to stick her neck out to the point of threatening her own employment by being a squeaky hinge. Yeah, it's a Korean world out there, and squeaky wheels don't get greased, they get moved. Moved away into a far away place, where they won't be heard. I'm sure you know about possible repercussions of a "pawn" in Korea railing against the machine from the inside. As Mr. Pink says; You show me a paper says the government shouldn't do that, I'll sign it. Put it to a vote, I'll vote for it....
I don't want to argue with you? Yes, as I said. That is a choice mack....a blanket choice that applies to the net and all on it. I'm sure you are scathing and all, but that isn't the reason I walk away. I admire your guns in regard to jobs, but I think you are dreaming and setting yourself up for an ulcer. 
@ flotsam: Here's something for you to think about:
Why did I write this, being a grown man and thinking so highly of my own intellect:
"On tanks: as in Panzers up your ass freaky avatar boy." |
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Yelman
Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, Ill USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: more more |
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Mack seems to have a grip the matter.
bonuses.....just pay me...if im a screw up...fire me...why jerk around with the money.
I got a Bonus once... the IRS sent me a check and said I paid in too much money |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| Demophobe wrote: |
@ flotsam: Here's something for you to think about:
Why did I write this, being a grown man and thinking so highly of my own intellect:
"On tanks: as in Panzers up your ass freaky avatar boy.... |
I don't know: without [sic] your comment doesn't make sense.
Now, do you have that data yet, or what? |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| My wife is all for getting foreigners more rights here in all areas of life, not just on the payscale. What she won't do, and I wouldn't ask her to, is to stick her neck out to the point of threatening her own employment by being a squeaky hinge. |
But if it's NOT a big conspiracy, as you claim, then she wouldn't be sticking her neck out, would she? She would merely be introducing a productive idea into the mix. Why would anyone have any reason to chide her?
You may say that my telling the boss to shove the crap contract up his ass is only a drop in the bucket (and it is), but I have been reading more and more posts by experienced teachers who are also taking the initiative. Sooner or later (probably later), public schools will have to seriously revamp contracts to entice the creme de la creme of the ESL world. After all, it's only the FUTURE OF KOREA we're talking about here.
But they don't get that. Not yet, anyway. The current position of the Korean government and hogwon owners is to hire the least common denominator teachers, e.g. the noobs who don't know s**t from shinola, who they can pay meager salaries to and push around when the need arises. |
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