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VirginIslander
Joined: 24 May 2006 Location: Busan
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Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:40 pm Post subject: An Islamic world--would you care. |
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Currently, there are more Christians than Muslims in the world. For this Irish-Polish American, who is a holiday Christian, that statement does not startle me.
However, if true, would this statement startle you: There are more Muslims than Christians in the world. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Location: I walk along the avenue
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Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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However, if true, would this statement startle you: There are more Muslims than Christians in the world.
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Not in the least. Church attendance in Europe being what it is, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there were more active Muslims than active Christians in the world. But so what? Politcal, cultural, and economic power aren't measured by raw numbers. |
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Satori

Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Location: Above it all
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Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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On the other hand wrote: |
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However, if true, would this statement startle you: There are more Muslims than Christians in the world.
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Not in the least. Church attendance in Europe being what it is, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there were more active Muslims than active Christians in the world. But so what? Politcal, cultural, and economic power aren't measured by raw numbers. |
And what if they had more power? |
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cerulean808

Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:01 am Post subject: |
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Politcal, cultural, and economic power aren't measured by raw numbers.
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I agree. Look at China, big pop, limited projection of military power (so far). Yet in my corner of the world, the Antipodes, there's still a persistent residual colonial fear of the 'Yellow Peril!', that a vast army of asians will decend on our god's zone land and thieve it from us. Often used as a rationalisation by Kiwi's I've confronted over our past foreign policy cowardice regards East Timor and Indonesia - 'don't want to piss off the Indonesians, there's 300 million of them you know mate!'
If I woke up tomorrow to news muslims out numbered and out powered the Christian West, guess I'd prepare to kiss my butt goodbye. From their point of view right now there's some serious score settling to do.
Maybe they wouldn't be as aggressively expansionistic as the West has proven to be... |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Location: I walk along the avenue
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:38 am Post subject: |
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On the other hand wrote:
Quote:
However, if true, would this statement startle you: There are more Muslims than Christians in the world.
Not in the least. Church attendance in Europe being what it is, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there were more active Muslims than active Christians in the world. But so what? Politcal, cultural, and economic power aren't measured by raw numbers.
And what if they had more power?
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I think it would depend on the political and social conditions of whichever Muslim nation was the main coduit for that power. If Saudi Arabia in its current existence were to suddenly become the world's interventionist superpower tomorrow, I would be worried. Not so much if it were some Muslim state that had evolved along the lines originally envisioned by Ataturk or the original baathist ideologues.
Notice I say "evolved along the lines of" what was "originally envisioned". I'm not suggesting that either Turkey or the Baathist states ever attained a condition that would have made them suitable candidates for world power. I don't think any Muslim country is anywhere near attaining such status at the current time, and any such country would probably have to undergo a lot of internal reform in order to do so.
Last edited by On the other hand on Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:04 am; edited 2 times in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Location: I walk along the avenue
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:03 am Post subject: |
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If I woke up tomorrow to news muslims out numbered and out powered the Christian West, guess I'd prepare to kiss my butt goodbye. From their point of view right now there's some serious score settling to do.
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Muslims outnumber Hindus, and Muslims and Hindus don't really get along. Lots of scores to be settled there as well. However, I don't think too many people in India think that the mere numerical superiority of Muslims is in itself a threat to their existence. The fact that Pakistan and Bangladesh border India might be a problem, but that's not related to the Muslim numbers worldwide.
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Maybe they wouldn't be as aggressively expansionistic as the West has proven to be... |
Expansionism usually requires complicity from at least some elements in the subjugated country. In Korea, for example there WERE influential factions who wanted the Japanese here. In Quebec, there WERE francophone elites who supported the English post-1759, as an alternative to mad dog republicanism. But quite frankly, I don't see that right now the Muslim world is selling anything that too many in the west would be willing to buy. Islam is currently the most stringent of monotheisms, and it's appeal is going to be rather limited among those not raised in its strictures. |
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Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Location: the eye
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: |
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A muslim planet? truly scary.....really. Its happening in europe a bit I think, at some point there may be a real conflict. Either that or muslims will simply replace europeans gradually by demographics. |
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nasigoreng

Joined: 14 May 2004
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't want to live under the laws of an Islamic government.
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�For example, one of the fundamental notions of a secular society is the moral importance of freedom, of individual choice. But in Islam, choice is not allowable: there cannot be free choice about whether to choose or reject any of the fundamental aspects of the religion, because they are all divinely ordained. God has laid down the law, and man must obey.
�Islamic clerics do not believe in a society in which Islam is one religion among others in a society ruled by basically non-religious laws. They believe it must be the dominant religion�and it is their aim to achieve this.
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http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/02/poll_reveals_40.php
Things i don't like about muslims:
1) muslim superiority: Muslims consider themselves better than other people because of their religion whereas i judge people based on their individual actions.
2) muslim solidarity: Muslims have an "us against them" attitude because they have been 'shamed' by western colonialism (military and economic superiority). When the US invaded Afghan, muslims protested because they saw it as western colonialism ... they didn't care about the Taliban government's oppressive and cruel practices.
3) irrational violence: The Danish cartoon fiasco for example. It reveals a deep inferiority complex in their psyche me thinks. |
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cerulean808

Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Muslims outnumber Hindus, and Muslims and Hindus don't really get along. Lots of scores to be settled there as well. However, I don't think too many people in India think that the mere numerical superiority of Muslims is in itself a threat to their existence. |
Like I said OTOH I agree numerical superiority is not sufficient for economic and military supremacy. If the 'muslim world' had more people and power then there would be a problem I think.
The question is hyperthetical, with lots of notions involved, a bit like 'What would happen if we woke up tomorrow to discover we all had superman powers?'
So I'm treating it as a 'turning the table' type scenario. Now the 'enemy' has the upper hand, more power ( as introduced by Satori ). Then they might want to engage in some pay back or go even further and attempt to occupy the West and administer it as part of empire. It would be at their discretion. |
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Troll_Bait

Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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If current trends continue, it will happen eventually.
The earth's population is currently increasing by 2.3 to 2.6 % per year.
In terms of the number of followers, Islam is growing 2.9% annually, while Christianity is increasing 2.3% annually.
It's estimated that Islam will overtake Christianity by about the year 2023 to 2025. |
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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:54 am Post subject: |
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U.S. Marines Build Shrine To Islam ... in the Pentagon
Navy Lt. Abuhena Mohammed Saifulislam
Insanity rules the day apparently. Why, this would be like the US inviting a bunch of Nazis to come over after we invaded Germany! Oh wait. We did! � PID
By Paul Sperry
Front Page Magazine
June 13, 2006
WE ARE at war with militant Islam, but you wouldn't know it from the Pentagon, which is busy erecting a shrine to Islam just five short years after Islamic terrorists destroyed a good chunk of its own building and killed more than 100 of its occupants. Worse, it's consulting on the project with a Wahhabi-educated cleric posing as a moderate.
Last week, military brass � along with representatives from the terror-tied Council on American-Islamic Relations � dedicated the first Muslim prayer center for the Marines as a symbol of the military's "religious tolerance" and "respect" for the faith the enemy uses to attack us. Already, plans are in the works to build by 2009 a bigger mosque at the Marine base in Quantico so Muslim service members can have a "proper place" to worship, and one that "honors their religious heritage," officials say, not realizing that the mosque can also be used by the enemy to build a Fifth Column inside the Marines.
The idea for the center came from Navy Lt. Abuhena Mohammed Saifulislam, a young, smooth-talking Muslim chaplain, who wanted a permanent place of worship � and "education" � for the growing number of soldiers who are interested in � and converting to � Islam.
Quantico has only 24 Muslims on base, so the mosque � the first of its kind in the 230-year history of the Corps � will also serve to introduce and draw other Marines to the faith. Large posters explaining how "Muslims love and respect Jesus" (but only as a minor prophet and not the son of God, which they view as blasphemous to Allah) line the inside of the white building. This is one way imam Saifulislam � known on base simply as "Saif" � bridges the faiths to reach out to Christian soldiers. Blacks are particularly susceptible to his pitch.
Apparently, whatever Saifulislam wants, he gets � even at the terrorist prison camp at Gitmo, where he was first assigned after 9-11. There, he recommended that al-Qaida detainees be served halal meals � including traditional dates and lamb � prepared according to Islamic dietary law. The Gitmo menu now boasts 113 Muslim-appropriate meals for the benefit of finicky terrorist tummies.
That's not all. Thanks to Saifulislam's advice, our enemy now wakes to the sound of Muslim chaplains calling them to prayer instead of barking dogs or guards, who are now trained in Muslim sensitivity. Also thanks to Saifulislam, detainees can brush up on jihad by reading paperback Pentagon-issued copies of the Quran. They can even finger prayer beads and wear makeshift turbans and skull caps.
While at Gitmo, the Navy imam privately counseled al-Qaida prisoners in their native tongues of Urdu and Arabic. "I must give hope for them to cope," Saifulislam said. How thoughtful of him.
It turns out Saifulislam also ministered to Marine Cpl. Wassef Ali Hassoun, a fellow Muslim charged with desertion, just before he went AWOL again last year. Hassoun deserted his post in Iraq where he served as an Arabic translator. After he was captured, and after he met with the Quantico imam, he deserted again.
Saifulislam is clean-cut with a Colgate smile. The Pentagon gives him great latitude because he claims to be moderate.
However, Saifulislam studied Islam at a hardline Wahhabi school in Virginia that was raided by federal authorities after 9-11. And one of his mentors is Taha Jaber Al-Alwani, an unindicted co-conspirator in the Sami al-Arian terror case. Federal court records allege he gave at least $50,000 in jihad money "to support suicide bombings" in Israel.
Saifulislam, born in Bangladesh, insists he is only a Sunni Muslim and does not adhere to the faith's more orthodox and militant Wahhabi sect practiced by Osama bin Laden and his ilk. Still, his pro-jihad academic background should raise flags at the Pentagon.
Instead, it's giving him a permanent taxpayer-supported platform from which to convert grunts to Islam. With the Quantico mosque, the Pentagon is facilitating the study of the holy texts the enemy uses, heretically or not, as their manual of war. This is tantamount to the Marines setting up a Mein Kampf reading room during WWII.
The timing of the dedication ceremony is ironic by half. As the deputy secretary of defense and Marine commandant respectfully removed their shoes to enter the mosque and intoned pleasant PC platitudes about being one big happy "family" with Muslims, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police announced the arrest of 17 Muslim men who had allegedly plotted to explode fertilizer-based bombs at important sites in Canada. Their plans also called for attacking parliament and even beheading the prime minister. Almost half of them had attended the same mosque in Toronto.
Several military officers chose to sit out the Quantico ceremony than hear deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England mouth "salaams" to the Muslims in attendance. They think the mosque is misplaced, and don't trust its imam.
"I have great concern about this young Muslim chaplain," said Lt. Comm. Gary P. Stewart, also a Navy chaplain. "I don't trust him."
The Pentagon's over-the-top gesture is only the latest sign that political correctness is running amok inside the military. Chief chaplains for the Navy, Army and Air Force routinely meet with top leaders from the Islamic Society of North America for PC powwows, even though ISNA is a Saudi-backed group with ties to terrorists. No matter, the Pentagon distributes ISNA literature on Islam and Muslims to help increase troops' "sensitivity" toward Islam.
The first principle of war is knowing your enemy and what motivates him. The PC-addled Pentagon seems to have forgotten that rule.
http://www.watchermagazine.com/?p=5500 |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Location: I walk along the avenue
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Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:26 am Post subject: |
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IGTG:
Why are you posting this xenophobic garbage?
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Last week, military brass � along with representatives from the terror-tied Council on American-Islamic Relations � dedicated the first Muslim prayer center for the Marines as a symbol of the military's "religious tolerance" and "respect" for the faith the enemy uses to attack us. |
So it's faith that the enemy uses to attack the US? And here I thought it was bombs and box-cutters.
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Apparently, whatever Saifulislam wants, he gets � even at the terrorist prison camp at Gitmo, where he was first assigned after 9-11. There, he recommended that al-Qaida detainees be served halal meals � including traditional dates and lamb � prepared according to Islamic dietary law. The Gitmo menu now boasts 113 Muslim-appropriate meals for the benefit of finicky terrorist tummies.
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Five'll get ya ten that these FrontPage bozos are the kind of guys who go on about how America treats its prisoners better than any other country in the world. Then, when provided with an actual example of America treating its prisoners well, they holler about how its some evil Fifth Column plot.
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It turns out Saifulislam also ministered to Marine Cpl. Wassef Ali Hassoun, a fellow Muslim charged with desertion, just before he went AWOL again last year. Hassoun deserted his post in Iraq where he served as an Arabic translator. After he was captured, and after he met with the Quantico imam, he deserted again.
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And this is supposed to prove WHAT, exactly? That prisoners who meet the prison chaplain sometimes break the law later on? Holy Cow, what an insight.
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However, Saifulislam studied Islam at a hardline Wahhabi school in Virginia that was raided by federal authorities after 9-11. |
Umm, any convictions result from this raid? Any major evidence picked up? Does anyone even know the name of the school?
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And one of his mentors is Taha Jaber Al-Alwani, an unindicted co-conspirator in the Sami al-Arian terror case. Federal court records allege he gave at least $50,000 in jihad money "to support suicide bombings" in Israel.
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Oh, so his "mentor"(whatever that means in this context) gave money to support suicide bombings. Or so says the magazine that can't even tell us the name of the "jihad school" he atteneded. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Location: I walk along the avenue
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Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:20 am Post subject: |
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Oh, and one more thing...
FrontPage magazine supports the US occupation of Iraq. In other words, they favour deep and ongoing American collaboration with tens of thousands of Iraqi Muslims, including intelligence-sharing and military co-ordination. And yet the U.S. military installs ONE Muslim prayer room somewhere, and they're screaming high treason. What a bunch of freaking idiots. |
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Nowhere Man

Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:43 am Post subject: ... |
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So, is Islam the new USSR? |
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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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White House Offers Only Mild Criticism In Saudi Rape Case
By Sue Pleming
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States, which wants Saudi Arabia to attend a Middle East conference next week, gave only mild criticism on Monday of a Saudi court's order to double the number of lashings for a gang rape victim.
MORE ...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/saudi_usa_rape_dc;_ylt=AjKWw6oEpdA09_1f1nk7eBkDW7oF |
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