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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Bignate: I would be happy to answer your absurd questions (again), if you can show me a rational basis for needing to ask them.
Why do you think I believe what you say I believe? Where have I said anything like that?
I am not being flippant; just asking that you come to terms with your antiAmerican imagination. |
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bignate

Joined: 30 Apr 2003 Location: Hell's Ditch
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Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Bignate: there was no infrastructure. Get your facts right first. |
Are you kidding, there was no electrical, there was no sewer, that the US desperately was trying to fix during the intitial phases of the war, that was imagined....the US engineers fixing bomb damage that was BS I guess.
Hell, the entire press corps was watching Al Jazeer in the Palestine Hotel through the whole thing, that must have been contrived as well.....shit
The insurgents blowing up water mains and oil lines.....that is all farsical too, except that it was on CNN.....
Get a grip,
I'll send you some David Horowitz so you can read up on ME History....  |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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I think one problem in attempting to communicate with you is that your English is simply substandard -- not just your writing style, by the way. You have issues conjugating verbs, as well. Indeed, I have had to decipher and then edit some of what you said above just to be sure my responses were clear.
In any case, when you referred to "infrastructure," above, I now see that you were not specific. The post immediately above this one makes it clear you were speaking of the physical infrastructure we refer to when we speak of the electrical grid and the telecommunications system, for example.
But when you initially spoke of "civil war" and "internal security" in the same breath as "infrastructure," I assumed you referred to the intangible political infrastructure I usually associate the word with. And that was what my answer dealt with. You might have noticed that I referenced "no infrastructure" while speaking of Saddam's "personalist dictatorship," but, in retrospect, I doubt it.
It is unfortunate. I am beginning to think you and several others here are either incredibly dense, a little unstable, or, perhaps more likely, both.
Perhaps there should be a test before one can post here. |
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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher wrote: |
Bignate: the positions you say I have seem to exist only in your head.
I am not going to defend myself against your accusations that I somehow hold opinions that you assign to me and then demand that I explain. |
Ah HA HA AH! And doesn't that sound familiar?!?!  |
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ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher ,
Your last post just reeks of the "confuse" and "marginalize" tactics which you use to prop up your own ideological confusion. I would much rather debate with someone honest enough to say, "let's get it on" than your type which always rings out the water (life) from everything with conjecture and "you don't have any facts/sources" etc.......... What you are left with, after you have done all this to whatever topic is pure pap........the dextrous of your confusion.
Anyways, I can see you are torn and feel for you.......
You should join the foreign service, they'd be proud of your ilk. Military leaning and able to cast doubt on all critics with arguements of "how do you know its true? " and "you are anti-American and don't count" (so who does???).
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On another thread, Ddeubel, you wrote...
Ddeubel wrote:
I think America should...try to change the world in a more productive and humane fashion.
I would tend to agree with this. But, tell me, why do you not offer the same advice to Islamic Fundamentalists? |
I detest fundamentalists of all ilk, have said so previously and you should know that. So your statement is disingenious. I also want fundamentalists to stop the violence and pick up their hoes and computer mice. Still, the worse evil is someone crashing in your door -- not the one picking up a gun to defend their family...........that's what it has come down to. I am pacifist but would with hesitation, pick up a gun to protect my family and repel invaders from thousands of miles away........you would too...It is this and not your assumption of foreign money and interests that drives the insurgency.......
You can't see the forest for the trees...............the Bush govt set all this up and knew everything beforehand. If you believe their apologetics, you are duped. They can bloody well tell what i've had for dinner yesterday but can't even assess a nation's armed strength???? Come on! They could have taken Saddam out long ago but it wasn't suitable then. they didn't need to, they wanted all the spoils themselves......The CIA pulled the rug out of a number of coup attempts.......by legitimate Iraqis.
That you believe all the excuses America is giving, is appalling(not us, its the insurgents/the monsters - we play by the rules, we are helping but it takes time to rebuild, etc....). That you can't see the crime is economic is appalling. That you can't see the U.S. rewrote the rules of modern warfare and was the aggressor and attacked a defenseless nation , invaded, is appalling. That you can't see that the only exit strategy is an exit, is appalling. That you can't see what bignate is saying is true -- that it is the guy (American and Iraqi) on the ground that is getting the shaft in all this, is appalling. That you think the Bush administration is "doing its best under duress", is appalling.
America will be America again once it starts looking after its own affairs and providing the example it once always was -- for the rest of the world. Then maybe the light on the statue of liberty can shine again.........
DD |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:44 am Post subject: |
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ddeubel wrote: |
Gopher ,
. Still, the worse evil is someone crashing in your door -- not the one picking up a gun to defend their family...........that's what it has come down to. I am pacifist but would with hesitation, pick up a gun to protect my family and repel invaders from thousands of miles away........you would too...It is this and not your assumption of foreign money and interests that drives the insurgency.......
.........
DD |
So AQ and the rest of those foreign fighters are just protecting their families?  |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Gopher, do you feel that the US soldiers killing Iraqi's are somehow better than the Iraqi insurgents killing American's ???? |
The US soldiers killing which Iraqis? In the cases where innocents are deliberately killed, or in situations like Haditha, no, I don't feel that the US soldiers are better than insurgent.
But in the situations where US soldiers are killing Iraqi insurgents, yes, that is in many ways far better than Iraqi insurgents killing Americans.
Some people on this chatboard might have us believe that the Iraqi insurgency is the postmodernist dream. It is supposed to be some kind of loose affiliation of dissenters, dissenters against the corruption of the superpower hegemon no less, each of whom have their own complicated reasons and passionate ideals for which they fight. They are supposed to have no real cohesiveness, yet they supposedly they too have all the effectiveness of organizations that are united both in terms of ideology and strategic supply.
Please.
The Iraqi insurgency is partly a lot of tribal riff-raff. A bunch of angry young men upset that a foreign soil has landed on their pathetic and impotent country, destroyed by Saddam. Some of them once worked for Saddam, and are furious that their hard work has gone to naught when he was taken out. Some of them are criminals, people who would prefer to smuggle weapons and bombs and IEDs not just to feed their families, but to become rich and powerful and pretty gangster. Some of them had members of their family killed by 'the infidel,' and since a lot of Islamic theology is pretty explicit that non-believers (i.e. Americans) are worth less than believers, how in hell could Allah let this happen? Some of them are itching to fight, and their tribal leaders told them to do it, so lets fight.
In other words, there are indeed a lot of complex motivations and disparate actors in this maelstrom that is the insurgency. But you know what? These people are a bunch of lowlifes. And they are very much in the way, especially now that the Sunnis are safely in the political process (there are some Shi'a insurgents, too, of course, but for the most part we are talking about Sunnis). They need to either walk away from their destructive insurgency, or be waxed.
Now, Bignate, I'm not necessarily trying to pick a fight with you, nor am I suggesting that the picture I painted that some people believe (sadly not strawman enough) is yours at all. Nor am I presuming that your position is necessarily opposed or allied with my position, but your question was just dangling there, and I had to answer it. |
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ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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The Iraqi insurgency is partly a lot of tribal riff-raff |
This is not what anyone fighting on the ground (American) would say ----- but exactly what those in power in the governement and fighting from their armchair would say!
You should work for the CIA!!! Your whole post might have come off of CNN. You don't get to the real problem -- Why are Americans fighting this riff-raff, thousands of miles from home? Remember , riff-raff kills, maims -- American and Iraqi innocents.
DD |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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ddeubel wrote: |
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The Iraqi insurgency is partly a lot of tribal riff-raff |
This is not what anyone fighting on the ground (American) would say ----- but exactly what those in power in the governement and fighting from their armchair would say!
You should work for the CIA!!! Your whole post might have come off of CNN. You don't get to the real problem -- Why are Americans fighting this riff-raff, thousands of miles from home? Remember , riff-raff kills, maims -- American and Iraqi innocents.
DD |
You don't like my post because I haven't highlighted American incompetence. This is your problem.
You always want to come back to that, the American government as the prime mover, but only of the negative things in our universe (No wonder you have such an affinity for Iran!). It might be because you are uncomfortable dealing with the fact that it is the insurgency who directly destroyed the Iraqi infrastructure. You want me to say the Americans let it happen? I won't say that, but I'll say this: The Americans couldn't stop it.
That doesn't do enough to prevent me from being right. The Iraqi insurgency first and foremost is directly destroying Iraq.
'Ah, but, the American presence is fueling the insurgency.'
Fine, fine. But if you are going to use that turn of phrase, please don't turn around on me with the Michael Moore argument that we should have invaded Saudi. And certainly, the insurgency is fueling the American presence.
But as each day passes, this entire argument becomes less and less relevant, and what becomes more and more relevant is that America has lost control over Iraq's destiny, and the matter is falling into Iraq's hands. I would like to see somebody besides either the American government or the riff-raff in control. |
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ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:08 am Post subject: |
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But as each day passes, this entire argument becomes less and less relevant, and what becomes more and more relevant is that America has lost control over Iraq's destiny, and the matter is falling into Iraq's hands. |
I agree. It should have remained in their hands from the beginning with the U.S. supporting those who advocated internal change. They (the CIA) and Bush, pulled the plug on a coup attempt by Iraqis because it wasn't their man..........preinvasion.
They should have stayed home from the begining and tried to change the world through their economic model and through supporting internal movements of liberation. Their military model is out of date, very and it just shows their "stupidity".........Americans should be ashamed of such dull headed , brutes who don't understand how the world works in the age of information and who just want to blast their way into "freedom" everwhere............
Sorry so many innocents had to die inbetween the idiocy of these two ideologic numheads.........i just wish the U.S. had stayed at home, a lot less trouble averted.....that we now agree on.
DD |
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