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Are All Muslims Evil?
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flotsam



Joined: 28 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:19 am    Post subject: Are All Muslims Evil? Reply with quote

I say no. But then again, I don't believe in evil.

Any thoughts from anyone else? Nobody particular in mind...
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. But then again, I do believe that some people could be described as 'evil'. What a ridiculous thread.
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Guri Guy



Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Location: Bamboo Island

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ummm.....isn't that tarring everyone with the same brush? I asure there are good and bad Muslims just like there are good and bad Christians or good and bad Buddhists etc.
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flotsam



Joined: 28 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
No. But then again, I do believe that some people could be described as 'evil'. What a ridiculous thread.


Yes, yes. But we know why I started it. Now, BV: you tend to generalize about Muslims, in an extremely negative way, quite a bit. Why so?
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I asure there are good and bad Muslims just like there are good and bad Christians or good and bad Buddhists etc.


Of course that is true, and I don't know anyone who would make such an ignorant and simplistic statement like 'all Muslims are evil'. I have been a very vocal critic of Islam, and the elements within Islamic theology and history which justify and condone violence and oppression. Certain people then respond with 'so you think all Muslims are evil?'. Hence, this thread.
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flotsam



Joined: 28 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guri Guy wrote:
Ummm.....isn't that tarring everyone with the same brush? I asure there are good and bad Muslims just like there are good and bad Christians or good and bad Buddhists etc.


Sorry GG, the thread title wasn't a serious question. Just a lead.
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flotsam



Joined: 28 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Of course that is true, and I don't know anyone who would make such an ignorant and simplistic statement like 'all Muslims are evil'. I have been a very vocal critic of Islam, and the elements within Islamic theology and history which justify and condone violence and oppression. Certain people then respond with 'so you think all Muslims are evil?'. Hence, this thread.


I think you know full well your rhetoric leads more to "all Muslims are evil" than to "I have been vocal critic of certain violent or oppressive elements within Islamic history and theology". But I suppose that assessment will remain subjective.

So why exceptionalize Islam? Or why choose this religion as your pet project as opposed to other religions or secular institutions or traditions?
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Or why choose this religion as your pet project as opposed to othe religions or secular institutions or traditions?


If there were hundreds of Bhuddist organisations involved in terrorism, establishing medieval religious laws, persecuting minority faiths, undermining liberal democracy and if thousands of such bhuddists who adhered to such an ideology were immigrating on mass to Western Europe, then I would be primarily concerned with Bhuddism.

It is my belief that Islam represents a fundamental threat to freedom and liberty and to the future security and stability of Western Europe. That is why I am concerned with its growth and with the huge amount of disinformation about Islam that circulates in the Western media.

Quote:
I think you know full well your rhetoric leads more to "all Muslims are evil"


That is your simplistic interpretation, and is a useful tool for suffocating debate. I don't think all Muslims are evil. However, I do not subscribe to the view, oft repeated in the media, that the 'vast' majority of Muslims are 'moderate' or that Muslims can be integrated into Western society.
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flotsam



Joined: 28 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:

If there were hundreds of Bhuddist organisations involved in terrorism, establishing medieval religious laws, persecuting minority faiths, undermining liberal democracy and if thousands of such bhuddists who adhered to such an ideology were immigrating on mass to Western Europe, then I would be primarily concerned with Bhuddism.


Possibly moot, but not really. The Governments of Ceylon, Laos and Burma, ostensibly Buddhist, have committed any number of "non-Buddhist" unethical or violent acts. However, the tenets of Buddhism have largely kept followers of the religion, relatively, less violent than others--no crusades or jihads(but how those Chogye monks love their bricks and chains...) Now I know you hate comparisons, but deal--you can't have a balanced analysis without them. And spell Buddhist correctly, damn you.

bigverne wrote:

It is my belief that Islam represents a fundamental threat to freedom and liberty and to the future security and stability of Western Europe. That is why I am concerned with its growth and with the huge amount of disinformation about Islam that circulates in the Western media.


I cannot see why you feel that Muslims, not Islam for now, pose more of a threat to a liberal society than Christians or Jews or Hindus or whoever. Now, you haven't said this yet, but you imply it. Do you really feel that Islamic religious beliefs themselves exert a more tenacious hold on Muslims than those of other religions hold on their adherents?

bigverne wrote:

I don't think all Muslims are evil. However, I do not subscribe to the view, oft repeated in the media, that the 'vast' majority of Muslims are 'moderate' or that Muslims can be integrated into Western society.


Do you feel it is more unlikely for young Muslims to question that faith, rebel against it, or come to terms with it in balance with liberal political values? If so, why? I do not. I know many Muslims, personally, who have very similar experiences to my own in questioning religion as they grew up. And, all of those Muslims were raised in secure, loving(or at least not too dysfunctional) families--not Gaza. Seems to me that the redneck Christians(read: less affluent monotheists with limited exposure to other cultures and religious/intellectual traditions) of the red states have more in common with the people in the cartoon riots than I have with the red staters or my friends with the rioters. And before you start in on the frequency of the violence, there is plenty enough of it among the rednecks(domestic violence counts too--you don't need an external enemy to "express" your beliefs) but I will refrain what you term "moral equivalency" if you refrain from ignoring levels of disparity in economic security, agency and thymos.

bigverne wrote:
That is your simplistic interpretation, and is a useful tool for suffocating debate.


Wrong. But let's just agree that this is subjective as well.
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SPINOZA



Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I was world dictator - Jesus Hitler, Adolf Christ, torn between good and evil and returning via reincarnation for mankind's salva-elimination - Jews, Christians and Muslims would have to clean up their act. These folks really wouldn't have a fun time. Yet at the same I can acknowledge it's very hypocritical of me to say that because I come from a culture (as we all do who post on this board - we're all from the same culture) whose religion is money. And frankly we're more of a destructive force than any of the religions. I just personally don't take kindly to people of religion and their myth-based self-agrandisement. We basically need to invent thermonuclear energy, or perhaps use solar power (whereby one day's sunlight is sufficient energy for 100 days potentially). Then we can let Darwinism take its course.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Governments of Ceylon, Laos and Burma, ostensibly Buddhist, have committed any number of "non-Buddhist" unethical or violent acts.


So have all governments, all of all shades. I think you would have trouble finding many current Buddhist organisations akin to the kind of Muslim organisations that can be found in almost all Muslim nations, and indeed Western countries with significant Muslim minoirities.

Quote:
I cannot see why you feel that Muslims, not Islam for now, pose more of a threat to a liberal society than Christians or Jews or Hindus or whoever


Religious fanatics, of any ilk, pose a threat to a liberal society. It just so happens that this is far more a problem in Islamic societies and within the Muslim community. There are roughly the same number of Hindus in the UK as there are Muslims. To my knowledge there are no Hindus calling for the establishment of a Hindu state in Britain, or Hindus spreading vile hatred against 'infidels'. Moreover, Hindus and indeed Sikhs are far more integrated and far more willing to accept Western cultural norms, unlike many Muslims.

Quote:
Do you really feel that Islamic religious beliefs themselves exert a more tenacious hold on Muslims than those of other religions hold on their adherents?


Yes. There is far less criticism allowed in Islam than in other religions, and it is a far more all encompassing faith. As many Muslims themselves will tell you, it is not just a religion but a 'way of life'.

Quote:
I know many Muslims, personally, who have very similar experiences to my own in questioning religion as they grew up. And, all of those Muslims were raised in secure, loving(or at least not too dysfunctional) families--not Gaza


The 7/7 bombers were also 'normal' lads from 'good' and fairly affluent families. Islamic terrorists on the whole are better educated and more affluent than their fellow Muslims.

Quote:
there is plenty enough of it among the rednecks(domestic violence counts too--you don't need an external enemy to "express" your beliefs)


Domestic violence occurs in all societies. What we are specifically discussing here is the propensity of different religions to inspire violence, so let's keep the irrelevance to a minimum shall we?
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jaganath69



Joined: 17 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a Muslim and I am very evil. I'm off out to have a beer and pull the wings off of flies. My evil Muslim missus is busy throwing rocks at kids in the meantime. Rolling Eyes
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jmbran11



Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Location: U.S.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:56 am    Post subject: Lay off the rednecks Reply with quote

Of course all Muslims are not evil, but that doesn't change the fact that Islamic states are some (but not all) of the most oppressive regimes on the face of the earth. I speak particularly to the treatment of women, which travels far beyond "cultural norms" to being a fundamental violation of human rights. In my humble opinion, that is evil.

Does that mean that all Muslims are evil? Of course not. I think the Spanish Inquisition was evil, but I don't blame all Catholics. I think the Chinese Cultural Revolution was evil, but I don't feel the need to bash the Chinese people. I think America's Klu Klux Klan is evil, but I don't hate all Caucasians. An educated, enlightened person can separate a dangerous ideology from a human being.

However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't oppose a dangerous political movement because we don't want to appear un-p.c. We have a responsibility to those who can't defend themselves. . . "When good men do nothing . . . blah, blah, blah . . ." When leaders of modern nations go on record stating that they hope to wipe another country off the map (i.e. Israel), we should strongly oppose them. Just like we should have opposed Hitler in the Sudentland (spelling?); just like we should have opposed the Taliban when they enslaved women (years before we decided it was the "moral" thing to do to extract revenge).

Asserting that some Buddhists (or Christians or Hindus or Santeristas) also do bad things is no excuse. We don't say that the Holocaust wasn't so bad because the Japanese were abusing Korean comfort women. It's a childish argument.

And, though I oppose President Bush's policies to my very core, the truth is that people in the "red states" are not as dangerous because they have jobs and families and economic opportunites, so they don't have as much time and energy to organize murders in the name of righteous revenge. It's people with little economic opportunity who see that kind of activity as a reasonable, viable alternative. Now, we could address the West's responsibility in that regard, but that's a whole other thread.

Finally, I come from a long line of "rednecks", so maybe you could lay off a bit on that group. Generalizing that rednecks are wife-beaters is no better than generalizing that all Muslims are suicide bombers. Of course, it's much more politically correct, so kudos to you.

Just for the record, studies show that domestic violence is roughly equal among all societies. But maybe it's just easier to stereotype. After all, all Muslims are evil, aren't they?
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the truth is that people in the "red states" are not as dangerous because they have jobs and families and economic opportunites, so they don't have as much time and energy to organize murders


They also do not adhere to a religious ideology which condones the murder of infidels, sanctions Jihad and glorifies suicide bombers.

Also, your point about economic opportunities has been shown to be nonsense so many times that I am surprised that people continue to state it. Most Islamic terrorists are relatively affluent, educated and middle class. They are motivated by an ideology that justifies violence and murder.

Quote:
studies show that domestic violence is roughly equal among all societies


Which studies would these be then? I would guess that such studies would be almost useless as in some cultures you will never be able to get accurate data about the level of spousal abuse. Look up the MEMRI website to see countless Islamic 'scholars' defend the beating of women. After all, it is sanctioned in the Koran.
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Muffin



Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Location: Turkey

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly not! My lovely boyfriend is a muslim and someone less evil would be hard to find.

I have lived with muslim people for a lot of the past few years as I used to let my spare room to foreign students at home. Because I was willing to take in muslims I usually got them because other families often refused. I can honestly say they were all a pleasure to live with.

My last host student was a Korean guy and he treated me far less respectfully than the Arabs, Kurds and Turks.

Of course that is not to condone Islamic fundamentalism and the ideology of the jihad crazy fanatics. They are evil, no doubt about that.

I also have no belief in the Islamic creed.

As individuals though most of them are warm and kind and humorous.
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