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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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curious, how many people actually read dd's posts? I now put him in the same category as IGTG.
Anyway, thanks for the clarification OH. I think you should take a little more time while writing your arguments instead of just shooting from the hip. |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Its a conflict for me do I take the time to craft an argument which is wasted on twits who really want war or do I just throw it out there. I should take more time, maybe then people would wake up. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:43 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
To clarify,
Kuros,
You're arguing that our war is to force Al Quaeda/radical Muslims to submit to "the West".
Is that what you're saying? |
Where do I argue for submission to any power?
The goal of our war against Al Qaeda is to get them to stop bombing places and threatening our homeland. And the only way to do that is to work to marginalize and eliminate them.
| Quote: |
| No, I dont think that Al-Qaeda will stop just because the US changes its foriegn policy. But if the US were to change its foriegn policy and remove troops from the middle east and stop blindly supporting Israel then they would have regained the moral high ground in the fight. The US is losing because every western democracy opposes them becaus etheir policies are hypocritical. We want democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan but in Palestine, to bad. We are against drugs, excet when the CIA is selling them or the Afghani's are. Car bombing a market is a crime but flattening Falluja is completly ok. Don't you guys see these issues? are you stunned? |
I don't agree with you on every point but certainly there are major hypocrisies in current American foreign policy. One thing I would agree with you (and I'm surprised you didn't mention it) almost wholeheartedly is that American detainment/interrogation/torture policies are appalling and must be halted and investigated immediately. This would be enough to regain quite a bit of moral authority (although against Al Qaeda we already do have higher ground morally).
| DDeubel wrote: |
| People/nations should start talking to each other. |
| DDeubel wrote: |
Kuros,
I was going to reply but after reading your musings, I have to refrain.
The world is much bigger than you think. Leave Al - Qaeda alone, the U.S. is just making it happen... |
The US government isn't the only entity guilty of hypocrisy. You come on this board, and lecture people on how they should talk to each other. Although, you won't listen to me because I'm supporting the big bad USA and I don't understand how big the world is and I agreed with something Joo said.
You are a waste of my time. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
[
Didn't Blake say that if "an idiot persists he will become a genius"? |
Hate to tell you this, but it seems you're heading in the wrong direction.
. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:13 am Post subject: |
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Kuros,
I've read your "dispassionate" posts and all I can conclude is that you are a rabid, violence monger......words such as Homeland and eliminate are already well adopted and part of your lexicon. You are of the NEW Breed.
I just ask all -- what did the original American Revolution stand for? Nothing that is being supported, argued by many here.......
Gopher, never said Americans are "stupid" but refered to their leadership. Don't hang this around my neck.
As to those who might say I "condescend" . I am not here to make personal friends nor am I here to make personal enemies. I am here to argue for the truth as I see it. To bring voice to the many that don't have a voice and are shocked, killed and tortured daily by those who talk "geopolitics" and raise glasses of champagne as socialists or socialites.....
Bucheon Bum, please take some time away from your DVD collection and gameboy and spend it in rational arguements and not just quips. Might win you some respect. But erudition is definitely not your strong point, so I am doubtful, you will take up the call.
I remain steadfast in my contention that those who follow are fools.....and those that lead are even bigger fools. The real winners are those who stay with the day to day. I've traveled , read and am content in what I know and more importantly the much I don't know. In that context, I don't have to suffer fools easily.
I have repeatedly said I am not anti-American . More American than most , for standing up to a corrupt leadership/oligarchy. I have argued 4 main things on this board and only that. They in no way say Americans are horrible but just point to things they have to clean up. Why do I argue these things, about America? Because it is my world, my paradigm, my flesh and my culture. I used to be very involved with issues on the shoah or holocaust. When I'd write an article I'd get much criticism regarding, "why don't you write about all the other horrible genocides around the world -- you are just a jewish stooge". My only response was that I wrote about this because it was of my western world, of my own hills and valley, of my own life and blood. It wasn't meant to say there aren't troubles elsewhere, horrible things in need of protest elsewhere. It is the same way regarding America.
The four things I have argued on this board are (and have posted sources, references)
1. America bears responsibility for the Iranian revolution and thus should try to understand the mindset of Iran in its current dealings, because of this responsibility.
2. America, its government has become but a branch of the corporate world . The leadership mingles money and power and is corrupt, neglectful of its population in supporting an oligarchy....
3. America was wrong to invade Iraq. Bush should be impeached for the lies he supported and the misinformation he partook in. Travesty, he has not been. The American leadership has misled the public by creating a climate of fear and war.....mostly hyperbole and storymaking...
4. America has issues with violence -- not crime. It is no more crime ridden than any country but its approach to crime (punishment) is ill conceived. Further ,the types of crime in America are much more violent than in most of the world. America has issues with violence......
Take that for being anti-America. I say it is very much American to speak up and fight for what is right. I will continue here , there, elsewhere, everywhere, anywhere....
I leave you with Jefferson's First Inaugural Address, over 200 years old but still as pertinent and right on as ever. 2 paragraphs pasted below which I find particular poignant , the rest at
http://www.famousquotes.me.uk/speeches/presidential-speeches/presidential-speech-thomas-jefferson.htm
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| Still one thing more, fellow-citizens -- a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities. |
and
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| About to enter, fellow-citizens, on the exercise of duties which comprehend everything dear and valuable to you, it is proper you should understand what I deem the essential principles of our Government, and consequently those which ought to shape its Administration. I will compress them within the narrowest compass they will bear, stating the general principle, but not all its limitations. Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none; the support of the State governments in all their rights, as the most competent administrations for our domestic concerns and the surest bulwarks against antirepublican tendencies; the preservation of the General Government in its whole constitutional vigor, as the sheet anchor of our peace at home and safety abroad; a jealous care of the right of election by the people -- a mild and safe corrective of abuses which are lopped by the sword of revolution where peaceable remedies are unprovided; absolute acquiescence in the decisions of the majority, the vital principle of republics, from which is no appeal but to force, the vital principle and immediate parent of despotism; a well-disciplined militia, our best reliance in peace and for the first moments of war till regulars may relieve them; the supremacy of the civil over the military authority; economy in the public expense, that labor may be lightly burthened; the honest payment of our debts and sacred preservation of the public faith; encouragement of agriculture, and of commerce as its handmaid; the diffusion of information and arraignment of all abuses at the bar of the public reason; freedom of religion; freedom of the press, and freedom of person under the protection of the habeas corpus, and trial by juries impartially selected. These principles form the bright constellation which has gone before us and guided our steps through an age of revolution and reformation. The wisdom of our sages and blood of our heroes have been devoted to their attainment. They should be the creed of our political faith, the text of civic instruction, the touchstone by which to try the services of those we trust; and should we wander from them in moments of error or of alarm, let us hasten to retrace our steps and to regain the road which alone leads to peace, liberty, and safety. |
DD |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| It is no more crime ridden than any country but its approach to crime (punishment) is ill conceived. |
How is this approach to crime different from most other countries? All over the world, punishment is used to deal with crime. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Maybe I should have used the word - Islamic terrorists. But Muslim (in the religious sense) , it is not!!! I think people are so wrong to paint all these various movements into one label......just too damn convenient and one way to create the notion of US and Them when it isn't anything that clear. |
It is the likes of Al Qaeda and all the other explicitly Islamic groups, advocating Islamic agendas that divide the world into Muslim and Infidel, and it is the height of ignorance to try and play down the Islamic character of these groups. It is what defines them, and it is this ideology which drives them.
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| Most of the "terrorism" IS nationalistic and the Islamicness of it, is only used to finance the movement and as a way of enlarging their profile |
That is simply nonsense. Many of these groups have very similar goals. The introduction of Shariah Law and the overthrow of 'apostate' regimes.
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| Also imagine Egypt or the Phillipines. Brutal. There are real reasons these people fight and it isn't for the virgins and jihad. It is for a future. |
Yes, for a future where Islam will dominate. What exactly do you think the goals of the Muslim Brotherhood are? They have articulated them many times. Perhaps you thought they were just joking.
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| If you believe in the notion of "Islamic" terror and jihad, you are just buying into the fear and myth these leaders want to create, nurture. |
No, I am simply looking at the words and actions of these various groups. In fact, Bush and others take a remarkably similar line to people like yourself, by attempting to play down the obvious Islamic nature of such groups. It must take a tremendous amount of self-deceit to actually believe that 'Islamic' terror is not a problem. Perhaps you should explain that to all those people killed at Sharm-El-Sheik or Bali. Although when I look at the number of meaningless platitudes you spout, it comes as no great surprise. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| War sometimes solves some things. For example, when Al Zarqawi dies, less suicide bombings occur, and the fuel for civil war and division that he was trying to inspire in Iraq declines a bit. |
You are making a prediction, one that can be measured with accuracy in the future. I commend you for that, not for your cerebrum but rather for your balls. Fact is, no one knows if what you say will happen actually will happen ...
And no one knows if a course taken other than open warfare against ALL muslims due to the actions of a bunch of extremists within them will produce a different or better result - and that is what Washington's actions are being perceived as among most of that faith, and understandably so. We're not likely to know if another route would be beneficial any time soon, because it hasn't been tried yet and likely won't be tried as long as the current group of bozos keep driving the car ....
The word "appeasement" is a red herring, makes the entire discussion worthless, you know - and by the way, it insults the memory of the millions of Jews killed at Auschwitz and Buchenwald by the implied comparison with Chamberlin and Munich. Sorry, but 3 or 5 thousand perishing in a building in NYC instantly does not compare to the slow starvation, deprivation, and lamp shades that come to mind when any thinking person brings The Holocaust to mind ...
(Frankly, everything I've read here so far is turning my stomach ... maybe it's not just you guys, maybe just something I ate. Good thing I got an appointment for a checkup in a few days. Let you know later if the nausea going on now is due to reading this thread or due to something real and actual in the world ... or some damn bug buried in my intestines.) |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Kuros wrote:
War sometimes solves some things. For example, when Al Zarqawi dies, less suicide bombings occur, and the fuel for civil war and division that he was trying to inspire in Iraq declines a bit.
You are making a prediction, one that can be measured with accuracy in the future. I commend you for that, not for your cerebrum but rather for your balls. Fact is, no one knows if what you say will happen actually will happen ... |
If you are trying to make me regret that Zarqawi is dead, I mean, my mind of course, not my balls, it is not working. I'm working under the premise that since Zarqawi himself, as well as many of his lieutenants, was killed in one of 17 seperate but roughly simultaneous raids, that is going to hamper Al Qaeda in Iraq's ability to promote civil war by detonating weapons of great destruction in markets and crowds of Shi'a across the country.
I believe the idea that Zarqawi was still on the lam made some Shi'a come to the conclusion that the Sunnis were not working hard enough to stop the civil war spiralling out of control.
I believe its unlikely that the US, in all its incompetence, was able to assemble Zarqawi's whereabouts as well as the positions of at least a dozen other of his strongholds. I believe that likely means that someone in the Sunni insurgency tipped off the US, perhaps in exchange for political power. I believe that the announcement of Zarqawi's death at the same time as the resolution over the controversy regarding the appointments at three important ministries is unlikely to be coincidence.
I've thought this position through, and I've come to the apparently controversial conclusion that Zarqawi's death is a good thing. So, you might see why I have no clue why you are talking about my balls. If you have any reasons to advance concerning why you think al-Zarqawi's death will lead to more violence (by which I mean more violence than there would have already been, caused by Zarqawi and others), my mind and not my balls will address them.
| The Bobster wrote: |
| And no one knows if a course taken other than open warfare against ALL muslims due to the actions of a bunch of extremists within them will produce a different or better result - and that is what Washington's actions are being perceived as among most of that faith, and understandably so. |
Since when is American foreign policy predicated on open warfare against all Muslims? How many Kurds have been intentionally targeted and bombed by the United States in the three years and three months of this conflict? Or are they not Muslims? Wasn't the Ba'athist Regime supposed to be a prime example of a secular regime (and an exemplar in the region for woman's rights, as someone reminded me often)? What part of funding disaster relief in Indonesia and elsewhere did the 'Crusade against Islam' play? Back it up, Bobster.
| The Bobster wrote: |
| The word "appeasement" is a red herring, makes the entire discussion worthless, you know - and by the way, it insults the memory of the millions of Jews killed at Auschwitz and Buchenwald by the implied comparison with Chamberlin and Munich. |
What? I'm insulting the millions of Jews who died in the Holocaust by trying to draw a historical comparison between the actions of Chamberlain and the actions proposed by some on this board to sue for peace with Al Qaeda? I truly don't understand.
| The Bobster wrote: |
| Sorry, but 3 or 5 thousand perishing in a building in NYC instantly does not compare to the slow starvation, deprivation, and lamp shades that come to mind when any thinking person brings The Holocaust to mind... |
Phew.... Did you hear that, Mr. Strawman? 9-11 does not equal the Holocaust.
However, I will continue to draw historical comparisons between dealing with someone like Hitler and dealing with someone like Bin Laden. By the way, it is worth noting that the war against Al Qaeda has been going on for some time now, and there have been many more attacks before and since 9-11. Meanwhile, Osama says that his goal is to kill 4 million Americans.
Hey, DDeubel, tell Osama to leave America alone! |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:30 am Post subject: |
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I stand by my point. Your post(s) Kuros , point to someone who doesn't want peace but just a good fight. Someone who is not for conversation but for guns and knockem out and hit 'em hard. I want go on in my characterization. .............
Al - Qaeda is a red herring and people like you gobble it up and keep the fires burning. Up to you, to figure out who profits from all this. Hope you do.........
As for the point about this world wide Muslim uprising. Just what both evil sides want everyone to believe. Sounds like something Dr. No might have dreamed up. Muslims vary all over the world, sharia law does too. The bottom line and cause of all their violence is not rabid hatred for America but hatred of the poverty and tyranny in their own nation states. If America would stop things like cowing to Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Israel, Turkey .... there would be a lot less grievance. They are just too inconsistent in all forms of their policy except for one, appeasement. YES -- it is America which appeases and doesn't stand up for the right thing. Stand up in the right way.
In the present climate of fear and bombs and brutality , in this present climate of imaginative war turned into the real, you are certainly licking your chops.....
The worst thing the U.S. ever did , in terms of Al - Qaeda was in giving them a platform, publicizing them as a "threat", putting this name up in lights and neon. Terrible, a mistake. But I know the reason, do you??? The same answer as that to the question I posed above....
DD
Also in ending, you sound like Bush -- talking about a "war" . Not according to the constitution. But we know how George has no concern for that -- seeing he is the most educated President ever therefore he doesn't have to be able to read... |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:11 am Post subject: |
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[quote="The Bobster"]
And no one knows if a course taken other than open warfare against ALL muslims due to the actions of a bunch of extremists within them will produce a different or better result - and that is what Washington's actions are being perceived as among most of that faith, and understandably so. We're not likely to know if another route would be beneficial any time soon, because it hasn't been tried yet and likely won't be tried as long as the current group of bozos keep driving the car
So when Clinton sent in the miltary into bosnia to stop the ethnic cleansing of Muslims, was this also war against all muslims. When army rangers went into somalia to try to get the food supplies rolled out to feed muslims, was this war against muslims? When US marines went into indonesia after the earthquake, was this also war against all muslims? |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
So when Clinton sent in the miltary into bosnia to stop the ethnic cleansing of Muslims, was this also war against all muslims. When army rangers went into somalia to try to get the food supplies rolled out to feed muslims, was this war against muslims? When US marines went into indonesia after the earthquake, was this also war against all muslims?
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You're talking mostly about another president.
You missed the last line:
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| as long as the current group of bozos keep driving the car |
Cheers to the posters pointing out hypocrisy.
It's cool that we don't behead people, but that doesn't make us cool. |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Quote: |
So when Clinton sent in the miltary into bosnia to stop the ethnic cleansing of Muslims, was this also war against all muslims. When army rangers went into somalia to try to get the food supplies rolled out to feed muslims, was this war against muslims? When US marines went into indonesia after the earthquake, was this also war against all muslims?
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You're talking mostly about another president.
You missed the last line:
| Quote: |
| as long as the current group of bozos keep driving the car |
Cheers to the posters pointing out hypocrisy.
It's cool that we don't behead people, but that doesn't make us cool. |
Different president. Same hatred of America. Dont forget that islamacists first tried to blow up the world trade center on clintons watch. Not to mention the african embassy bombings. Not to mention that september 11 was planned long before Bush ever became president.
If Clinton had the guts to put boots on the ground in afgahnistan instead of lobbing cruise misiles at tents in the desert, the invasion of Iraq may not have happened. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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if clinton had the guts. 
I suggest you do some reading. The military was the one lacking guts. Clinton did the cruise missle bit as a compromise with the pentagon. |
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