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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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 Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: WEIRD physics moment.... |
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OK, I know keeping a liquid under pressure and heating it will raise the temperature at which it will become a gas, but I've never read anything about pressure preventing a liquid from turning to a solid, i.e., ice. To wit:
I had a bottle of San Sa Choon ( 산사촌, 14 percent alcohol ) in the freezer. I took it out and it was fully liquid. I opened it and within a few minutes it was partially - maybe half? - frozen!! Still is!!
You science geeks tell me why. (No googlin', etc., you non-science geeks: I seek to be impressed.) |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:21 am Post subject: |
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nothing to do with pressure per se
fact: different elements freeze into a solid at different temperatures
fact: water freezes relatively easily, H2O, oxygen freezes at a higher temperature (more easily)
so...
theory: oxygen from the air perhaps was binding with the liquid hydrogen particles, or something of the like
the humanities major in me finds this uninspiring. perhaps a more scientific mind might find it deep or worthy of debunking thoroughly |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
nothing to do with pressure per se
fact: different elements freeze into a solid at different temperatures
fact: water freezes relatively easily, H2O, oxygen freezes at a higher temperature (more easily)
so...
theory: oxygen from the air perhaps was binding with the liquid hydrogen particles, or something of the like |
Well, there was precious little bubbling, etc.
| VanIslander wrote: |
| the humanities major in me finds this uninspiring. perhaps a more scientific mind might find it deep or worthy of debunking thoroughly |
van, ol' buddy, ol' pal, we may yet someday share a beer, but for godsakes, man, why answer if ya don' knows' tha ans'er??? |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| van, ol' buddy, ol' pal, we may yet someday share a beer, but for godsakes, man, why answer if ya don' knows' tha ans'er??? |
Because the obvious facts I cite suggest an easy answer.
I don't understand why it'd be such a puzzle. Science buffs will confirm the facts and explain a full explanation.
Beers on me if you're up to it. |
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Bo Peabody
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:19 am Post subject: |
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The soju bottle was pressure-sealed in manufacturing, causing the internal pressure to stay greater than the external atmospheric pressure. The melting point (aka freezing point) usually doesn't have much to do with pressure, but in this case, the internal pressure of the bottle must have been great enough to keep the parts ie. the alcoholic & the non-alcoholic contents from separating. The liquid stayed interdiffused for the duration of its stay in the freezer and therefore was able to keep itself from partially freezing. We also know that the temperature inside the freezer must have been above -14.4 degrees Celsius (The alcohol percentage of a liquid roughly matches its negative freezing point in Celsius scale) or else the entire content of the bottle would have frozen.
When the bottle was taken out of the freezer and subsequently opened up for consumption, the bottle's internal pressure was lowered to atmospheric pressure and the internal temperature started rising to room temperature. Two things must have happened:
1. The internal bottle temperature stayed below the melting point of its non-alcoholic content and this lasted long enough for the partial freezing to be observed.
2. The internal bottle temperature stayed above the melting point of alcohol, obviously.
Last edited by Bo Peabody on Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:45 am; edited 2 times in total |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Bo Peabody wrote: |
The soju bottle was pressure-sealed in manufacturing, causing the internal pressure to stay greater than the external atmospheric pressure. The melting point (aka freezing point) usually doesn't have much to do with pressure, but in this case, the internal pressure of the bottle must have been great enough to keep the parts ie. the alcohol & the non-alcohol contents from separating. The liquid stayed interdiffused for the duration of its stay in the freezer and therefore was able to keep itself from partially freezing. We also know that the temperature inside the freezer must have been above -14.4 degrees Celsius (The alcohol percentage of a liquid roughly matches its negative freezing point in Celsius scale) or else the entire content of the bottle would have frozen.
The temperature of the bottle and its content stayed below the melting point (aka freezing point) of its non-alcoholic part from the moment of bottle-opening to the moment of freezing observed. |
wa.....?  (my b.s indicator is going through the roof! is it broken?)
interdiffused liquid pressure? temperatures below freezing point don't freeze?
sounds like gobblygook to me... someone explain, please! |
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Bo Peabody
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
wa.....? (my b.s indicator is going through the roof! is it broken?)
interdiffused liquid pressure? temperatures below freezing point don't freeze?
sounds like gobblygook to me... someone explain, please! |
The internal pressure (not liquid pressure) of the bottle kept the alcoholic and non-alcoholic parts from separating.
Matter below freezing temperature does freeze, obviously. The freezing point of the soju should roughly be -14.4 degrees Celsius. I was saying that the temperature in the freezer didn't go below that temperature or else the soju would have frozen. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Bo Peabody wrote: |
| The internal pressure (not liquid pressure) of the bottle kept the alcoholic and non-alcoholic parts from separating. |
So it wasn't separated, but is now?
| Quote: |
| Matter below freezing temperature does freeze, obviously. |
Water, yes.
| Quote: |
| The freezing point of the soju should roughly be -14.4 degrees Celsius. I was saying that the temperature in the freezer didn't go below that temperature or else the soju would have frozen. |
Sure, but are you saying that the water separated afterwards, and froze at a closer to zero temp?
I spoke in terms of oxygen particles and freezing temp of water.
We both may be right.
(though I dunno about the separation thesis you're invoking) |
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pegpig
Joined: 10 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: |
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I've seen it happen to a beer too often.  Nothing stronger though. |
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Bo Peabody
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: |
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What occurred with the bottle is based on what you said:
| VanIslander wrote: |
fact: different elements freeze into a solid at different temperatures
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The question is:
Why did the soju remain liquid, and then partially turn into solid when the bottle was opened?
It's puzzling because the temperature didn't drop all of a sudden when the bottle was opened. If anything, it stayed the same before slowly rising to match the room temperature.
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| I took it out and it was fully liquid. I opened it and within a few minutes it was partially - maybe half? - frozen!! Still is!! |
The part that froze was obviously non-alcoholic.
The bottle was fully liquid in the freezer because the alcohol kept the non-alcoholic substances from freezing. (The two parts were 'interdiffused') |
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Bo Peabody
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
| Bo Peabody wrote: |
| The internal pressure (not liquid pressure) of the bottle kept the alcoholic and non-alcoholic parts from separating. |
So it wasn't separated, but is now? |
Yes. Because when one part is at a temperature ready to freeze and the other part is not, the molecules tend to gravitate towards its own kind. In this case, however, the molecules in the container were so jam-packed (due to internal pressure) that this was difficult to achieve. Once the bottle was opened, problem solved, the alcohol molecules finally all got together (stayed liquid) and the non-alcohol molecules all got together (froze solid).
Last edited by Bo Peabody on Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Bo Peabody wrote: |
| ... the molecules tend to gravitate towards its own kind... |
I don't know about that.
But we both may be onto the truth.
Oxygen as part of water may be at issue, as I've stated, yet what you've said may be a factor too.
I am not puzzled because I EXPECT water to freeze easier than alcohol, so exposing a sealed alcohol bottle to air should make freezing easier I'd think.
*shrug* |
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Bo Peabody
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
Oxygen as part of water may be at issue, as I've stated, yet what you've said may be a factor too.
I am not puzzled because I EXPECT water to freeze easier than alcohol, so exposing a sealed alcohol bottle to air should make freezing easier I'd think.
*shrug* |
I've observed Koreans discarding a few drops from the bottle immediately upon opening... citing "bad stuff at the top". I'm sure there's some kind of chemical reaction between the air and liquid molecules but both liquid Hydrogen and liquid Oxygen only exist in extremely low temperatures. |
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TheFonz
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: North Georgia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| pegpig wrote: |
| I've seen it happen to a beer too often. Nothing stronger though. |
Isn't that what most Ice beers are all about? When they make it they freeze it and then extract the ice and your left with the alchohol? I might be way off but thats what I have heard.
I agree with Peabody the pressure is the reason it stayed liquid and the lack of pressure is what allowed the water and alchohol to split up. I think it is obvious because the only difference between the two would be the lack of pressure. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| TheFonz wrote: |
| ... the lack of pressure is what allowed the water and alchohol to split up. that is obvious. |
wa...? if you mean water forms and freezes upon opening then we agree |
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